Concerning the lack of provenance for this ‘surprise’ 1804 dollar:
First of all, it is a ‘backdoor’ Mint product, probably produced circa 1860 or so.
And Stack may have been bought it around 1930. That leaves a 70 (+ or -) year gap.
So It’s even possible that Stack bought it, directly or indirectly, from the estate of the collector who originally acquired it from some unknown Mint employee, or director.
Whether it happened that way or not, it must have traded only privately in the roughly 70 years before Stack acquired it.
So, it has a provenance, but incomplete. .
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
Who knows? Perhaps the provenance info went with the coin to the hypothetical heir, and the hypothetical heir, not being a collector, threw it away or lost it.
Remember the guy who bought an 1894-S Dime just because he wanted to own one rare coin? Hardly a collector.
Next questions…😉 Suppose the provenance information was thrown away, what do you think the chances are that the coin was previously in one or more public auctions but couldn’t be traced/matched? And what do you think the chances are that the coin never appeared in one or more public auctions?
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
Who knows? Perhaps the provenance info went with the coin to the hypothetical heir, and the hypothetical heir, not being a collector, threw it away or lost it.
Remember the guy who bought an 1894-S Dime just because he wanted to own one rare coin? Hardly a collector.
Next questions…😉 Suppose the provenance information was thrown away, what do you think the chances are that the coin was previously in one or more public auctions but couldn’t be traced/matched? And what do you think the chances are that the coin never appeared in one or more public auctions?
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Excuse me, too. Much of what you wrote would apply to the other 1804 dollars, as well. So why do all of them have provenances, but not this one?
Based on posts to this thread from other forum members, I’m not the only one who finds this situation unusual/puzzling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
Thanks, Mick.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
The press release states "Research on the coin continues..." so time will tell what if anything they can determine. I think it is to soon to draw conclusions about the pedigree.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
any unaccounted Mickley examples that this could be one of? not that any of that has an impact on title of this coin - but just thinking out loud where a gem might have come from
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
I reject the silly concept that every possible rarity is already known to the world, and it bothers me when people bad mouth somebody else's newly discovered coin just because THEY did not already know about it. Maybe THEY think that this somehow makes THEM look smaller.
Remember the fabulous discovery of the Saddle Ridge gold hoard? A number of people sniffed and said that because there was no record of the coins, they must have been stolen! This wrongly maligned a truly great discovery.
I have mentioned on here before going to look at a collection in upstate New York in the early 1980s that was eventually auctioned by Bowers and his then partner as the Emery-Nichols Collection. This was a three generation collection that began in the 1880s and ended when the third generation died suddenly about 1940 and his widow put everything in a steamer trunk, locked it, and asked her bank to keep it for her. She then lived for over 40 more years.
I got called in because her heirs, a niece and nephew, opened this time capsule and discovered paperwork which indicated that the late collector had been an ANA member, and oh by the way there was an 1804 dollar in the trunk. This was not long after I had recovered the Linderman 1804, so Rochette worked out a deal with them where I would fly to New York at their expense and examine the coin. Alas, it was a clever alteration, But the point is that this coin might have been sitting in this collection for up to 100 years, and it had by chance been a genuine 1804 it could well have been a new discovery.
Otherwise it was a great collection. Everything was in those brown Wayte Raymond pages. I remember picking up one page designed to hold a complete set of Twenty Cent Pieces. It was full. I looked at the obverse of the one in the 1876-CC hole and saw the doubled die obverse and just knew that the CC would be there when I turned it over.
Off the soapbox.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
any unaccounted Mickley examples that this could be one of? not that any of that has an impact on title of this coin - but just thinking out loud where a gem might have come from
Did Mickley have a Class III 1804? If I remember correctly, he sold or auctioned his collection around 1867 after having part of it stolen.
I know he had a Class I. Is there a list of what was in the auction and of what was stolen?
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
So how did Linderman or some other mint employee after hours and decades later create a better struck Class III coin then the novodels that were created as 'presentation' pieces. Assuming the original Class I dies were not just lying around for usage. Did an engraver create a better die then the original one.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
So how did Linderman or some other mint employee after hours and decades later create a better struck Class III coin then the novodels that were created as 'presentation' pieces. Assuming the original Class I dies were not just lying around for usage. Did an engraver create a better die then the original one.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
So how did Linderman or some other mint employee after hours and decades later create a better struck Class III coin then the novodels that were created as 'presentation' pieces. Assuming the original Class I dies were not just lying around for usage. Did an engraver create a better die then the original one.
40 years of medal press technology improvement?
More like 25, IMHO.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@coastaljerseyguy said:
So how did Linderman or some other mint employee after hours and decades later create a better struck Class III coin then the novodels that were created as 'presentation' pieces. Assuming the original Class I dies were not just lying around for usage. Did an engraver create a better die then the original one.
40 years of medal press technology improvement?
More like 25, IMHO.
Maybe. I find it curious that the Class III coins all of a sudden started appearing mid 1870’s if they were struck 15 years earlier
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
I reject the silly concept that every possible rarity is already known to the world, and it bothers me when people bad mouth somebody else's newly discovered coin just because THEY did not already know about it. Maybe THEY think that this somehow makes THEM look smaller.
Remember the fabulous discovery of the Saddle Ridge gold hoard? A number of people sniffed and said that because there was no record of the coins, they must have been stolen! This wrongly maligned a truly great discovery.
I have mentioned on here before going to look at a collection in upstate New York in the early 1980s that was eventually auctioned by Bowers and his then partner as the Emery-Nichols Collection. This was a three generation collection that began in the 1880s and ended when the third generation died suddenly about 1940 and his widow put everything in a steamer trunk, locked it, and asked her bank to keep it for her. She then lived for over 40 more years.
I got called in because her heirs, a niece and nephew, opened this time capsule and discovered paperwork which indicated that the late collector had been an ANA member, and oh by the way there was an 1804 dollar in the trunk. This was not long after I had recovered the Linderman 1804, so Rochette worked out a deal with them where I would fly to New York at their expense and examine the coin. Alas, it was a clever alteration, But the point is that this coin might have been sitting in this collection for up to 100 years, and it had by chance been a genuine 1804 it could well have been a new discovery.
Otherwise it was a great collection. Everything was in those brown Wayte Raymond pages. I remember picking up one page designed to hold a complete set of Twenty Cent Pieces. It was full. I looked at the obverse of the one in the 1876-CC hole and saw the doubled die obverse and just knew that the CC would be there when I turned it over.
Off the soapbox.
TD
I don’t see where much of what you wrote pertains to the current discussion.
Unless I missed it, no one put forth the “silly” concept that “every possible rarity is already known to the world”.
And I think you jumped to an incorrect conclusion in accusing posters of “bad mouth somebody else's newly discovered coin just because THEY did not already know about it”.
Your appeared on your soapbox in the midst of the wrong thread.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A census of Class IIIs from 1887- earliest I found.
8- of which 2 were said to be in the Mint Cabinet --3 additional rumored to have been confiscated from J.B. Eckfedlt and destroyed.
Assume one of the examples in Mint Cabinet referenced --was the Class II?
J.B. Eckfeldt, retired in 1929 and passed in 1938.
Complete guess, but if 1) Eckfedlt was under a "confiscation order" and subject to a "claim" for the restrikes from the U.S. Government; 2) he held back about number he had (or did not destroy all three) ; and, 3) one or more were disposed of after his death in 1938-----might not be the kind of provenance to advertise.....
Interesting 3 of those restrikes found overseas homes. Googling Linderman, saw this fact.
In 1871, he was sent by the U.S. government to London, Paris, and Berlin to collect information concerning the mints in those places and in 1872 made an elaborate report on the condition of the market for silver. In order to find an outlet for the great amount of silver in the United States, Linderman proposed the trade dollar, which started in 1873.
Guessing this may also be related to when these 1804 coins found homes in these countries and maybe even when they were re-minted by Linderman.
Comments
Concerning the lack of provenance for this ‘surprise’ 1804 dollar:
First of all, it is a ‘backdoor’ Mint product, probably produced circa 1860 or so.
And Stack may have been bought it around 1930. That leaves a 70 (+ or -) year gap.
So It’s even possible that Stack bought it, directly or indirectly, from the estate of the collector who originally acquired it from some unknown Mint employee, or director.
Whether it happened that way or not, it must have traded only privately in the roughly 70 years before Stack acquired it.
So, it has a provenance, but incomplete. .
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Excuse me, too. Much of what you wrote would apply to the other 1804 dollars, as well. So why do all of them have provenances, but not this one?
Based on posts to this thread from other forum members, I’m not the only one who finds this situation unusual/puzzling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
OK, how about this:
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Thanks, Mick.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The press release states "Research on the coin continues..." so time will tell what if anything they can determine. I think it is to soon to draw conclusions about the pedigree.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
any unaccounted Mickley examples that this could be one of? not that any of that has an impact on title of this coin - but just thinking out loud where a gem might have come from
I reject the silly concept that every possible rarity is already known to the world, and it bothers me when people bad mouth somebody else's newly discovered coin just because THEY did not already know about it. Maybe THEY think that this somehow makes THEM look smaller.
Remember the fabulous discovery of the Saddle Ridge gold hoard? A number of people sniffed and said that because there was no record of the coins, they must have been stolen! This wrongly maligned a truly great discovery.
I have mentioned on here before going to look at a collection in upstate New York in the early 1980s that was eventually auctioned by Bowers and his then partner as the Emery-Nichols Collection. This was a three generation collection that began in the 1880s and ended when the third generation died suddenly about 1940 and his widow put everything in a steamer trunk, locked it, and asked her bank to keep it for her. She then lived for over 40 more years.
I got called in because her heirs, a niece and nephew, opened this time capsule and discovered paperwork which indicated that the late collector had been an ANA member, and oh by the way there was an 1804 dollar in the trunk. This was not long after I had recovered the Linderman 1804, so Rochette worked out a deal with them where I would fly to New York at their expense and examine the coin. Alas, it was a clever alteration, But the point is that this coin might have been sitting in this collection for up to 100 years, and it had by chance been a genuine 1804 it could well have been a new discovery.
Otherwise it was a great collection. Everything was in those brown Wayte Raymond pages. I remember picking up one page designed to hold a complete set of Twenty Cent Pieces. It was full. I looked at the obverse of the one in the 1876-CC hole and saw the doubled die obverse and just knew that the CC would be there when I turned it over.
Off the soapbox.
TD
Did Mickley have a Class III 1804? If I remember correctly, he sold or auctioned his collection around 1867 after having part of it stolen.
I know he had a Class I. Is there a list of what was in the auction and of what was stolen?
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
So how did Linderman or some other mint employee after hours and decades later create a better struck Class III coin then the novodels that were created as 'presentation' pieces. Assuming the original Class I dies were not just lying around for usage. Did an engraver create a better die then the original one.
40 years of medal press technology improvement?
More like 25, IMHO.
Maybe. I find it curious that the Class III coins all of a sudden started appearing mid 1870’s if they were struck 15 years earlier
I don’t see where much of what you wrote pertains to the current discussion.
Unless I missed it, no one put forth the “silly” concept that “every possible rarity is already known to the world”.
And I think you jumped to an incorrect conclusion in accusing posters of “bad mouth somebody else's newly discovered coin just because THEY did not already know about it”.
Your appeared on your soapbox in the midst of the wrong thread.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A census of Class IIIs from 1887- earliest I found.
8- of which 2 were said to be in the Mint Cabinet --3 additional rumored to have been confiscated from J.B. Eckfedlt and destroyed.
Assume one of the examples in Mint Cabinet referenced --was the Class II?
J.B. Eckfeldt, retired in 1929 and passed in 1938.
Complete guess, but if 1) Eckfedlt was under a "confiscation order" and subject to a "claim" for the restrikes from the U.S. Government; 2) he held back about number he had (or did not destroy all three) ; and, 3) one or more were disposed of after his death in 1938-----might not be the kind of provenance to advertise.....
Just complete supposition!
That’s an apt supposition, coinciding with James Stack’s numismatic era.
My guess is that we’ll never know.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Interesting 3 of those restrikes found overseas homes. Googling Linderman, saw this fact.
In 1871, he was sent by the U.S. government to London, Paris, and Berlin to collect information concerning the mints in those places and in 1872 made an elaborate report on the condition of the market for silver. In order to find an outlet for the great amount of silver in the United States, Linderman proposed the trade dollar, which started in 1873.
Guessing this may also be related to when these 1804 coins found homes in these countries and maybe even when they were re-minted by Linderman.