Concerning the lack of provenance for this ‘surprise’ 1804 dollar:
First of all, it is a ‘backdoor’ Mint product, probably produced circa 1860 or so.
And Stack may have been bought it around 1930. That leaves a 70 (+ or -) year gap.
So It’s even possible that Stack bought it, directly or indirectly, from the estate of the collector who originally acquired it from some unknown Mint employee, or director.
Whether it happened that way or not, it must have traded only privately in the roughly 70 years before Stack acquired it.
So, it has a provenance, but incomplete. .
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
Who knows? Perhaps the provenance info went with the coin to the hypothetical heir, and the hypothetical heir, not being a collector, threw it away or lost it.
Remember the guy who bought an 1894-S Dime just because he wanted to own one rare coin? Hardly a collector.
Next questions…😉 Suppose the provenance information was thrown away, what do you think the chances are that the coin was previously in one or more public auctions but couldn’t be traced/matched? And what do you think the chances are that the coin never appeared in one or more public auctions?
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
Who knows? Perhaps the provenance info went with the coin to the hypothetical heir, and the hypothetical heir, not being a collector, threw it away or lost it.
Remember the guy who bought an 1894-S Dime just because he wanted to own one rare coin? Hardly a collector.
Next questions…😉 Suppose the provenance information was thrown away, what do you think the chances are that the coin was previously in one or more public auctions but couldn’t be traced/matched? And what do you think the chances are that the coin never appeared in one or more public auctions?
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Excuse me, too. Much of what you wrote would apply to the other 1804 dollars, as well. So why do all of them have provenances, but not this one?
Based on posts to this thread from other forum members, I’m not the only one who finds this situation unusual/puzzling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
Thanks, Mick.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CaptHenway said:
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CaptHenway said:
A hypothetical scenario: Stack had an heir that had asked him to leave the coin to him or her. The heir kept the coin quietly, grew old and either died or decided to liquidate. Since the (hypothetical) mystery heir was not a bankable pedigree, it is being offered under the very bankable, and very literally accurate, Stack Pedigree.
Even under your hypothetical scenario, wouldn’t you expect a bankable provenance history at or prior to the time the coin was obtained by Mr. Stack?
The press release states "Research on the coin continues..." so time will tell what if anything they can determine. I think it is to soon to draw conclusions about the pedigree.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
Comments
Concerning the lack of provenance for this ‘surprise’ 1804 dollar:
First of all, it is a ‘backdoor’ Mint product, probably produced circa 1860 or so.
And Stack may have been bought it around 1930. That leaves a 70 (+ or -) year gap.
So It’s even possible that Stack bought it, directly or indirectly, from the estate of the collector who originally acquired it from some unknown Mint employee, or director.
Whether it happened that way or not, it must have traded only privately in the roughly 70 years before Stack acquired it.
So, it has a provenance, but incomplete. .
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Excuse me. The world has not always been as it is today. 1804 Dollars have not always been multi-million dollar coins. My first Redbook (probably a 1964) listed Original 1804 Dollars at $10,000 or so. Stack died in 1951. Grabbing a 13th Edition off of my bookcase I see that the Idler Restrike sold for $3,125 in 1947. If I were a dealer in that era and I bought a nice Restrike in over the counter I might simply offer it directly to a good customer, as Mr. Stack apparently was to the dealers of his time. The dealer gets a quick profit, with no auction house commissions and no waiting months for the sale.
I used to have a guy who collected gold bars of different types. Everything we bought in that looked interesting I offered to him first before it went in the showcase. Period. When he finally cashed out to fund some medical research for something that his daughter had, the collection was roughly 3,800 ounces.
Excuse me, too. Much of what you wrote would apply to the other 1804 dollars, as well. So why do all of them have provenances, but not this one?
Based on posts to this thread from other forum members, I’m not the only one who finds this situation unusual/puzzling.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Show me the law that says that all rare coins are required to have provenances.
OK, how about this:
US Mint, Director James Ross Snowden, 1859, purchaser unknown.
(This space intentionally left blank)
James A Stack, Sr. purchased it sometime between “the late 1930s to 1951” according to Stack’s Bowers.
It took a trip to PCGS, another to CAC, 21st century.
Auction to be held December 2025.
You can’t always get
the complete impeccable provenance you want,
but if you try sometime, you get what you need.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Thanks, Mick.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I never even implied that all rare coins are required to have provenances. All I’ve been saying is that this is an unusual situation for such a famous rarity, and that some of us find it puzzling. Equally puzzling is why you appear to want to debate that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The press release states "Research on the coin continues..." so time will tell what if anything they can determine. I think it is to soon to draw conclusions about the pedigree.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin