MBA Diamond Certification/Update 8/17...Batting 31/49 (.633)
mintonlypls
Posts: 2,410 ✭✭✭✭✭
After a few submissions (49 cards)...I will say that MBA does NOT hand out diamonds easily...which is good. I like that MBA has strict standards...and will communicate why a particular card is NOT a candidate. The transparency is very good...as well as communication.
I read that Keith and High66 had cards reviewed by MBA at the National...and it sparked my interest….so I researched the website…and came away impressed enough to submit about 50 cards from my 65 card collection. Right now…MBA is running a special thru the end of August in that a digital review charge will be credited towards the actual submission charge of the cards for a tamper-proof diamond sticker. This digital review makes it cost effective so that diamond certification candidates only are submitted. (Silver or Gold)
Mike Baker was a PSA grader dating back to its infancy in 1991…and a lead PSA grader for more than a decade.
The idea makes a lot of sense in that given a grade….a card in that grade category can look better than other cards in the grade category. Some cards have exceptional eye appeal for the assigned grade…in other words.
So far….I have submitted 44 cards …and 27 cards have come back as candidates. Here is my list:
1933 Goudey Ruth #144 PSA-5 ….not a candidate
1951 Bowman Mantle RC SGC-7 ...Diamond candidate
1953 Bowman Color Mantle PSA-7….Diamond candidate
1956 Mantle PSA-8….Diamond candidate
1957 Mantke PSA-8….Diamond candidate
1958 Mantle PSA-8…not a candidate
1963 Mantle PSA-8.5….not a candidate
1964 Mantle PSA-8.5….Diamond candidate
1969 Mantle PSA-8.5…Diamond candidate
1955 Jackie PSA-8…Diamond candidate
1963 Pete Rose RC PSA-8….not a candidate
1968 Nolan Ryan RC PSA-8.5….Diamond candidate
1969 Nolan Ryan PSA-9….Diamond candidate
1955 Topps Willie Mays PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1956 Willie Mays PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1957 Willie Mays PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1965 Willie Mays PSA-9...not a candidate
1967 Willie Mays PSA-9...not a candidate
1964 Pete Rose PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1965 Pete Rose PSA-9...not a candidate
1957 Don Drysdale RC PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1957 Brooks Robinson RC PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1959 Bob Gibson RC SGC-8.5...not a candidate
1963 Lou Brock PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1963 Hank Aaron PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1963 Roger Maris PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1963 Frank Robinson PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1963 Roberto Clemente PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1963 Willie Mays PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1958 Roger Maris RC PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1972 Nolan Ryan PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1969 Reggie Jackson RC PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1963 Sandy Koufax PSA-9...not a candidate
1955 Sandy Koufax RC PSA-7...Diamond candidate
1956 Sandy Koufax PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1957 Sandy Koufax PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1964 Sandy Koufax PSA-9...not a candidate
1964 Koufax KKs 15 PSA-9...not a candidate
1958 Roberto Clemente PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1965 Roberto Clemente PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1967 Roberto Clemente PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1968 Johnny Bench RC PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1941 Play Ball Ted Williams PSA-6.5...not a candidate
1955 Bowman Mickey Mantle PSA-7...Diamond candidate
1955 Topps Hank Aaron PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1965 Hank Aaron PSA-8.5...not a candidate
1967 Hank Aaron PSA-9...Diamond candidate
1962 Lou Brock RC PSA-8.5...Diamond candidate
1969 Johnny Bench PSA-9...Diamond candidate
Comments
Hate those stickers because they hurt negotiating for nice cards. Bought one with a sticker (no idea which sticker silver or gold) at The National this year but have been unsuccessful in the past getting a dealer to come down to VCP high on their stickered cards. The one I have is a ‘53 Bowman Hodges - have not had a chance to scan the new pickups yet so can’t post a picture. I tossed the certificate so you can see the card back but left the sticker.
Nicer examples can cost a premium…
Agree but VCP high is a premium and I said close to VCP high as in willing to pay a little bit above. There was a ‘54 Mays last year that they were trying to get more than a 9 that had sold at a major auction house a couple of months earlier for an 8. The 9 was noticeably better. People must be willing to pay up for it but do not see a lot of stickers when I look at the photos of recent comps in VCP.
I personally do not like MBA certification. I figure I have already paid for either PSA, BGS, SGC opinion. I dont need Mike Bakers opinion on top of that. I feel that I am well able to see if a card looks nice for the assigned grade.
YMMV
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mike Baker has graded and seen more cards than most people….and his experience is valuable in my humble opinion.
Given how often PSA provides multiple, different, opinions on the same card I agree that there is value in some auxiliary assessments.
I’ll caution that the MBA sticker hasn’t helped me bump anything to a 10 ever but I find that sticker bumps mid-grades almost always. Not that it bumps them itself but you know what I mean and if you don’t you’re right.
I got the chance to meet Mike at the national and had some cards reviewed by MBA. IMO Extremely helpful and super nice guy. They were very thorough in their evaluation, and got the cards back in the timeframe. They stated. Also, he personally looked through the cards and gave me some tips, It was great to have somebody with that type of experience to validate what I saw in the cards as well. About to send them another batch of cards to review. Lmk what you guys think.
Keith…
I think all the cards are good candidates for exceptional cards for the assigned grades.
Agreed. I like the stickers and knowing that i have a higher end card for that assigned grade. Just my personal preference. I haven't tried to submit any for bumps yet. I did submit a handful to Baker at the national and received several Gold/Silver back. I did sell a couple at the show and was happy with the prices I was getting especially selling to a dealer. I've since submitted 4 more for digital review and had all 4 come back as candidates.
Keith….
Did Mike Baker say which quality carries the most weight…centering?
Did the ‘61 Mantle PSA-7.5 receive a diamond? If so…gold or silver?
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I did. Was surprised it didn't get the gold
Monte - Here is another submission that I was extremely happy with
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With respect, this is peak hobby stupidness. A guy putting stickers on slabs that have been subbed and re-subbed.
I get people wanting to maximize value of their ‘investments’ but my god are we a pathetic collecting community if we need 3-5 people to tell us how a card looks.
Where it concerns the potential for personal gain, yes.
Farewell Ryno.
To each his or her own…nothing wrong with maximizing his or her investment/interests. Today’s prices have made collecting sports cards not only a hobby…but also an investment.
I personally give it no credence. I have purchased cards with the gold designation (without paying a premium) and found them to be nothing special. Just my two cents. FWIW, I removed the stickers from every card.
I am pretty happy with my own ability to judge which cards I believe to be high end for the grade. To me, naked eye appeal is everything.
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
Iirc I believe centering both front and back factor into the score/evaluation.
FYI
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1116041/mba-mike-baker-authenticated-crossover-attempt-psa-says-altered#latest
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'm surprised that PSA hasn't pounced on this and created a "special slab" with a built in gold or silver star on their slab versus Mike Bakers sticker. They could hold the card hostage, send an upcharge email and let the customer decide if they want to pay for the special slab. More money........
I can definitely see that happening. Although, that's what the half grades are supposed to be for.
Grade in tenths? Just kidding…
Don't give them any ideas. Before you know it we'll all feel pressured to send our graded cards back for tiny grade fractions.
(I legitimately think this is something companies will start charging extra fees to do)
Are coins graded in whole numbers?
SOunds fine to me. PWCC and 4SC do it. MAybe I will too.
Whole numbers yes, but on a Sheldon scale which ranges from 1 to 70 instead of 1 to 10.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
So…it’s a finer scale for coins.
If I was the CEO of a grading company I would certainly be trying to figure out how to get 1/10s incorporated into my grading. I'd start with cards currently at 7-10 and begin doing 1/10s. A TON of people would send those back in for new grades because I'm sure the market would pay a lot more for a 9.8 75 Brett than a simple 9.
That's just revenue sitting on the tree waiting to be picked.
But there are also stickers "Beans" (CAC) that coins can have labeled on the graded holders.
I remember when premiums were based on one pertinent fact: Mine looks better than yours.
Farewell Ryno.
1/4 point grading scale at 7 and above...(7.25, 7.5, 7.75 8) and so on up to 10.
this.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Have people seen big gains because the MBA sticker was added vs just having a card (with no MBA, PWCC, 4 Sharp sticker) that looks nice for the grade? Meaning a nice 8 is going to command more than an average 8, say 20 to 40% just based on everyone's evalauation of eye appeal. Does the sticker change that to 30 to 70% or better? Of course if the analysis made by the sticker applier is accurate that the card is high-end for the grade it will sell for more. But it should anyway if there are observant potential buyers.
Agree on to each their own but dont see myself ever buying a card with an MBA sticker on it. But I get it, if you love it, buy away and submit away. I just feel it ruins the aesthetic a little. I dont think it makes it look nicer. Maybe similar to leaving someones price tag on the card. On the reverse I dont care that much about someone adding a sticker. I can live with but I dont appreciate it. A while back, I had PWCC add the ratings and stickers to my cards that I was selling which did not move the needle much.
Another thing with the MBA sticker is I just wonder is it that hard to forge? Looks like an uncomplicated sticker without a unique design or anything like a serial number that is card specific. Could an employee just snatch a bag of those stickers and sell them to people so they could apply them to every card they own like Post-it notes?
See 1st paragraph of OP and the list...for the update.
So his opinion is half your cards are not fantastic for the grade? So much so they aren’t even a candidate to be top tier?
Does that line up with your opinion on these cards?
I'm not really against it in principle, but at some point credibility will be lost and I think it's already here.
At some point, undeserving cards will get stickered.
I mean, who will keep sending cards in if most all get rejected? MBA is a business after all.
Feels more like a money grab and a make the customer feel good.
Here is a 1981 Magic Johnson PSA 10 with a Gold Diamond sticker.
MBA graded "Pristine" according to their website, with a note of bottom-right corner.
But nothing about the obvious tilt? This is top-tier?
At the end of the day, it's just another opinion of someone else's opinion.
And I see Gold stickers on BGS Pristine 10s with (3) 10 subgrades and (1) 9.5 subgrade.
Is that really necessary? Obviously it's top-tier of 10s. Unless MBA is suggesting it should be Black Label.
A few surprises...but it is very nice to see what MBA is looking at when determining if a card is a silver or gold candidate. Still...I very much like my collection...and still consider it high end (8 or higher)...at 83% (54/65 cards) with only one card (1972 Nolan Ryan) later than the 1960s...and 71% (46/65) at 8.5 or higher. I have found that MBA has more transparency than either SGC or PSA when assessing a card. Still, 28 cards to come back from MBA digital review...
Again…I like very much how picky MBA is in awarding either a silver or gold diamond.
I think two (2) card qualities that are missed most often when assessing a card are registration...and skewness.
Thinking positively...or spinning it positively: 52% are exceptional for the assigned grade at this point...12/23. 28 more cards to come back....
I wonder if that 52% stacks the same against others sending them in for review. Or do most get in the 20-30% positive return?
It seems to be getting harder to justify any grading or reviews if there's little consistency in the industry. One would expect there'd be less a need for these extra reviews if the grading companies were more comparably consistent.
Good points BBBrkrr!
You also get a little card which has the MBA cert and it's also in a database. Similar to PSA, if you're buying one, or, paying a premium for one, best advice is to look it up.
all-in-all I think these "extra review" hints are a good thing - as they focus you on a card which might be worth of closer inspection. same as the PSA grade, it's an opinion. More opinions should improve accuracy, but it's not a guarantee.
Now that I know I can look at a heat map I will use that in negotiation. Could I see the Mike Baker certificate so I know your sticker is real? Mike Baker says there is something wrong with the bottom left. You obviously value his opinion since you paid for it. When I buy a card above VCP high I expect the bottom left corner not to have issues! Also Mr Dealer I see that you have Mike Baker assess your cards. This non-stickered card over here is obviously average for the grade or below so the VCP high price is completely irrelevant in our negotiation.
To be serious though. The cards I have looked at that have the sticker do seem to be high for the grade.
On the MBA site….there is a place to enter the certification number (PSA, SGC, BGS) …and the image of the card will come up with either a silver or gold sticker.
Baker also the president and head of card grading at GAI prior to this.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
And to show just how silly it's getting, here is a PSA card that was sent in to MBA and received a Silver Diamond.
Not good enough for the submitter I guess, so the card was resent back to MBA for a review and it got bumped to Gold! LOL
What does any of this mean? Was the re-grader influenced? Was the Silver grader wrong?
And why did it get bumped. MBA notes bottom rt corner, and it's off centered (not noted).
So which opinion matters? Which one is the "true accurate" one?
This micro-grading is out of hand. The 10 pt system is good enough. Even no 1/2 pts are needed.
You may have a weak 9 or a strong 9. Who's to say? Depends what the collector is looking for.
Based on my limited experience with MBA (23 digital submissions and counting to 51)…MBA seems to be very critical when assessing cards. I am okay with that and impressed…and it gives me confidence in MBA assessing a card…and also when a card receives a diamond. It also is very nice to point out the reason or reasons why a card is not a candidate for a diamond. I think that low to mid-grade cards especially if centered….have a better chance to receive a diamond than high end. Today…I included a 1941 Play Ball Ted Williams PSA-6.5…very well centered… I want to see if my inclination is right.
They are very critical in grading but in a good way. One of the benefits when submitting cards to them is they provide a super high resolution scan of your card which is great for later on when you want to tell it since you have access to all the scans. Also, I can tell you from direct experience that the customer service is top-notch, and not only did receive good service at the national but also in subsequent follow up emails. For example, I sent an email last night about a question for an upcoming submission, and I received a response back within the hour directly from Mike himself. Previously, I was probably somewhat reluctant to utilize them and thought it was just an extra sticker, but having taken the plunge and having submitted a few cards and dealt with them directly I can attest. they are extremely good to deal with. No reservations whatsoever in recommending them and their services.
KC
KC - I completely agree with all your points. I've been submitting cards to Baker with great results. But, I see the post above from and he has a valid point about that card. I met with Mike at the National, great guy by the way, and according to him he is the only one that authenticates the cards. So makes me question how that card bumped from a silver to a gold when in my opinion maybe shouldn't be in a 10 holder to start with.
The centering on this card left to right is about 46/54. That fits with a PSA 10 grade but I may hold off on buying it raw thinking its too borderline. I am not sure what silver diamond or then gold diamond means if its supposed to be Pristine or Black Label level flawless pristine but I cant see if you gave it subs how it could qualify for 10 centering.
Then would hope that is not a scratch or print line going from his hair to his neck. I see 3 print dots. One by his sock to the left, hand to the right and another near that dot. I think this kind of looks like a PSA 9 or a BGS 9. Maybe an SGC 9.5.