Thoughts and question about recovering stolen PCGS coins.
SanctionII
Posts: 12,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
Assume a group of 50 PCGS coins (that have Trueview photos of them taken at the time of grading) are owned by Mr. Collector. Mr. Collector has receipts showing his purchase of these raw coins from dealers. He submitted the coins for grading. Upon being graded Cert #s were assigned and Mr. Collector added those coins to his Inventory (and maybe to his Registry Sets). PCGS sent to Mr. Collector paperwork evidencing the submission of the coins by Mr., Collector, the grading of the coins, the fees charged to and paid by Mr. Collector. PCGS has in its data base information showing that Mr. Collector submitted the coins for grading, received the graded coins and added them to his Inventory.
In summary there is substantial evidence of Mr. Collector's ownership of these coins (including Trueview photos of the coins with their Cert. #).
Mr. Collector's home is burglarized and all 50 of his coins are stolen. Mr. Collector reports the burglary to the police, who create a police report. Mr. Collector provides to the police documentation showing the Trueview photos of the coins, their Cert. # and that from the day PCGS assigned and activated Cert. #s for the 50 coins he added them to his Inventory.
The coins have never been deleted from the Inventory of Mr. Collector.
5 years pass. The 50 coins have been split up, disposed of by the thieves and have been bought and sold multiple times since the theft.
One by one these 50 coins start making public appearances (dealer website offerings, auctions) and Mr. Collector becomes aware of at least some of his coins making public appearances.
A settled rule of law is that one can not pass title to stolen property. Mr. Collector does not lose ownership of his 50 coins that were stolen. The coins still belong to him. The theft of the coins is ignored and is considered by the law to be VOID (Void means the theft never happened; as opposed to voidable which means the theft of the coins is a valid transfer unless and until Mr. Collector takes action to invalidate the transfer and reacquire the coins).
With the above in mind, does anyone know of any theft of coins where the victimized owner, months or years after the theft, has been able to reacquire the stolen coins based upon:
the collector's own records (including those showing his acquisition of the coins, his grading of the coins and his placing the coins into his PCGS Inventory [or other TPG inventory]);
the records of PCGS; and/or
the police report of the theft?
If you know of such a situation please provide details. I would be very interested to hear about any such situations ending up in a court lawsuit involving all the claims of all parties involved with the ownership of, theft of and post theft transactions related to the stolen coins.
To me it seems that the grading of and the inventorying of coins serves a function similar to that of the DMV and the County Recorder's Office (places where ownership of motor vehicles and the ownership of real property is documented and maintained).
Comments
Sorry for the loss experienced by Mr. Collector.
I am curious about this type of situation and how things would play out.
I have been watching out for a large group of coins I sold years ago that were supposedly “lost” in shipping yet marked delivered by USPS. They are still in my inventory and have not had any removal requests yet. I suspect buyer fraud but have only circumstantial evidence.
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
This isn’t analogous with respect to the recovery of stolen coins which had been professionally graded. However, certain coins identified as among those in the du Pont robbery were returned to the family decades later.
Link to old Coin World article: https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/national-numismatic-collection-receives-du-pont-proof-coins.html
“The Proof 1866 Seated Liberty, No Motto quarter dollar, half dollar and dollar owned by business magnate Willis H. du Pont have been donated to the National Numismatic Collection of the Smithsonian Institution.
All three numismatic rarities had been on loan for more than a decade to the American Numismatic Association for display.
The three coins were among the coins stolen in a 1967 armed robbery at the du Pont family estate in Florida. All three coins were lost for more than three decades.
The Proof 1866 Seated Liberty, No Motto quarter dollar and half dollar surfaced in separate over-the-counter transactions in 1999 in Los Angeles. Both coins are unique, a fact that aided in their identification and subsequent return to the family.”
And here’s an article (which is an excellent read) about the robbery and other recovered coins:
https://www.pcgs.com/news/great-du-pont-coin-robbery-and-recovery
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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Several years ago I had some coins stolen. Years later, they popped back up when someone tried to register a dozen of them in a registry set. (I had never removed them from my PCGS inventory, so I was alerted that someone was trying to register them.) I contacted the detective who had worked my case, and they were all set to get involved and get a warrant to see who had tried to register them - but it all died because I had insurance and had been paid for the loss, so technically the coins were now property of the insurance company, not me, and the insurance company for some reason would not get involved to file a complaint. Extremely frustrating.
The detective should have pursued it simply because a crime was involved. If the coins were recovered you could have made a deal to recover them from the insurance company. Just because the insurance compaid off doesn't mean that the crime was settled/solved.
My local dealer once purchased a few stolen graded coins. When the new buyer tried to register the coin, the old buyer got a message. Working with the police they were able to trace the coins back to dealer, who had the sellers license photocopied. The seller was questioned but I believe the police didn't press charges as the coins where stole from a family member (who ended up not pressing charges). This stuff gets really messy when family is involved. From what I gathered the grandfather assumed it was a burglary not a family member (grandson) stealing to support his bad habits.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
When appropriate should PCGS add a note to the cert number lookup that states This coin has been reported as stolen?
One of the best stolen items stories was told to me by a local coin dealer with a store (this was about forty years ago). A young man came into the store to sell some gold jewelry items. The dealer bought the items and complied with all the local regulations for such purchases. Not long after a woman comes into the store, the seller's mother, and demands the return of the items claiming they were stolen from her. The dealer then asked to see a copy of the complaint she filed with the police. She replied that she was not going to file a complaint since her son was involved. The dealer then replied, no complaint, no theft, no return. He never heard from the woman again.
I have never used it myself, but "MyCollect" hosts "TheftCheck".
Apparantly, you have to register for an account in order to use it.
Link: https://www.mycollect.com/theftcheck
The detective was more than happy to investigate - but could not get the court to give him a court order to have PCGS release the data for who tried to register the coins without the owner of the coins, which was now the insurance company, filing a complaint. The courts considered my original police report closed because there had been an arrest and conviction of two of the people involved in the theft. (The other people involved were never located, and they possessed most of my slabbed coins stolen.)
I reached out to the insurance company pre-emptively at the same time as I informed the detective to make them aware of the resurfacing of the coins, and to tell them I would like to buy any recovered items back. Since the loss was fully itemized with a $ value assigned to each coin in the claim, it would have been extremely simple to take the value they paid me for any items recovered and refund it to them. As it was a high 5 figure claim, I assumed they would be interested to get involved and recover some of their loss - apparently they were not.
I'm in a situation now similar to the OP except that I don't know if the coins were stolen.
FedEx lost or cannot find the coins in transit back from NGC. I've checked the FedEx website periodically and a few weeks ago, it recorded another delivery attempt but when I called them, the rep claimed there was no info to provide. I've been reimbursed but would rather have the coins and told NGC I would pay them back.
With reference to the Smithsonian potentially being ordered by the current administration to dispose of duplicates in their collection, I have a decades-old letter from the Sec’y of the Smithsonian ( the senior SI executive ) stating that the Smithsonian requires 2 of every coin, medal, etc to potentially have to exhibit obv and reverse.
However, in 1999 I was privileged to visit the then 4th floor vault room of the Smithsonian’s numismatic division and “ let loose “ to examine the contents of metal cabinets with numerous large, thin drawers. The first drawer I was drawn to was labeled “ Lincoln medals “. Pulling the drawer out, I was instantly greeted with SIX side by side mint state original silver 76 mm ( large size ) Lincoln Indian Peace medals, three UNpierced and three struck & pierced by the US Mint. So much for “ duplicates “.
How desperate are some of you to derail this thread with a completely unrelated story? Start your own thread - and risk banishment
As mentioned by others, the key missing information about Mr. Collector is the question of insurance. If an insurance claim has been paid Mr. Collector has no claim on the coins and probably no standing.
The Dupont collection is the most obvious example and the inverted Jenny was (partly) recovered quite recently.
Arguably, the Mint reacquiring the 1933 DEs is another recent example.
But, of course, neither of those involved PCGS coins.
I was involved in a case of shorter duration (weeks not years) where the victim was able to reaquire a number of NGC Franklin halves based on his records of purchase with the registry numbers.
Ignore it and continue on. Pretend it's not there.
This is an interesting scenario. > @hfjacinto said:
It sounds like the original owner surrended them since they didn't want to press charges against the family member who stole them. If they did press charges, would the end buyer of the coins from the dealer have to surrender them and be out the cost?
You could delete it.
Sounds about right.
I will if any responders delete too.
In general, once an insurance company pays a claim made by its insured under a policy of insurance, the insurance company is (by contractual provisions in the insurance policy and by rules of law) Subrogated to the rights of its insured against third parties.
In other words the insurance company steps into the shoes of the insured and can pursue whatever legal claims the insured has against third parties (including the people who stole the coins and those in the chain of control/possession of the stolen coins from the date of the theft through the present).
However the insured is not left with no way to reclaim the stolen coins after the insurance company pays the claim. The insured, after learning of the current location of the stolen coins, can:
engage is self help (by going to where the coins are and taking back possession of them [without violence]);
make a deal with the insurance company to purchase from the insurance company (hopefully at a deeply discounted price) the rights of the insurance company (after which the insured can seek to recover the coins through all available means); and/or
make a deal with the insurance company to act on its behalf to recover the stolen coins and after they are recovered determine the value of same and agree on a buyout price to be paid to the insurance company.
I wonder what constitutes proof that the coins were actually stolen? Bear with me...
I have never registered a coin. I'm sure many people don't bother to release coins they've already registered.
So, is having once owned a coin sufficient to prove ownership? Does the police report provide sufficient basis?
Just curious...
The police report merely says I am claiming it was stolen. I believe you would need a receipt or bill of sale to prove ownership. If the person in possession of the item disputed that it was stolen, and you can not produce any paperwork documenting your ownership, then you will not be recovering it.
done
Well how would you prove that your coins were yours if they were stolen?
Civil disputes which are not voluntarily resolved outside of court end up in court (through which a disinterested, impartial third party [judge or a jury] will decide and resolve the dispute).
The party who initiates the court lawsuit (by filing a Complaint) or who responds to a complaint filed in a lawsuit by filing a Crosscomplaint) is asking the court to DO SOMETHING which changes the current status quo (i.e. decide my coins have been stolen, that I still own them; and that the current possessor of my coins must return them to me).
Unless and until the current status quo is changed, the coins will not be returned to the person who claims that they were stolen.
In general the party who files a civil lawsuit and seeks to have the court change the current status quo must PROVE that what he/she/it alleges in the Complaint is in fact true. That person has the burden of proving their case.
What constitutes sufficient proof to prove one's civil case? That depends on various things, but in my opening hypotheticial I mentioned many facts and documents that would exist that would support/prove the claim of Mr. Collector that his 50 PCGS coins were stolen, that they still belong to him and that the current possessors of those coins must return them to Mr. Collector.
Idk exactly...
I've told the story before. I partly retold it here. I bought a large collection of stolen coins, slabbed and raw from a dealer. He called me a few days later because they popped on the Sheriff's website as stolen.
I met with the police and the victim. I brought ALL of the coins. The victim was allowed to regain possession of a dozen of so Franklins. I was allowed to keep the rest, including another dozen or so Franklins.
All of the coins came from the same alleged thief who was awaiting trial. But the only coins the victim was allowed to keep were the ones where he had invoices that included the registration number.
I think it still have some of the raw coins...
Raw coins (except for the very few of them that are easily recognizable, i.e. J1776) are fungible. Take one coin out of one roll of MS 1964 D Quarters and look at it. While it is in your hand you recognize it. Add it to the other 39 coins in the roll and pour them into a jar. You will not be able to pick out the one you previously held in your hand.
You have no way to prove which coin out of the 40 in the roll was previously in your hand. The coins in the roll are fungible and comingled.
Shift from raw coins to slabbed coins. The data regarding a slabbed coin and the repositories of that data give one a better chance at proving that a specific coin is yours and should be returned to you because it was stolen.
Again, the systems created by TPGs can act as the central storage location of coin ownership data (similar to the DMV for motor vehicles and the County Recorder for real property).
A coin entered into the PCGS inventory has a time stamp so if one was entered 15 years ago that might stongly suggest that you owned [owned meaning currently and not previously] it.
I would say the opposite. If it was entered a week ago, you probably owned it currently. If entered 15 years earlier, it might have been sold 3 times since.
I don't know about you and others, but when I sold a coin in my ACTIVE inventory it got moved to my SOLD inventory. Don't know why others wouldn't release it as soon as it was paid for or delivered. It's just pith poor manners not to. So yeah, ft it went into my inventory 15 years ago, I owned it then and I own it now.
I would be hesitant to buy a coin from someone if the seller wasn't the person listed as having it in their PCGS inventory.
Not everyone bothers. I never register the coins at all. I'm sure some people don't bother to release them. It comes up every now and then on the forum when someone tries to add a coin to their registry set to find it is still like in someone else's. That's why I asked the question.
If someone dies and the heirs sell the coins, do the heirs even know how to remove it?
@SanctionII
For the most part, what you wrote is correct but there can be exceptions based on individual State Law as to the so-called "Made Whole Doctrine" and "Priority of Recovery". In a state that recognizes the "Made Whole Doctrine", an insured that either has an uninsured loss which may include a policy deductible maintains the right to pursue that uninsured loss. And the right of the insurer to seek its right of subrogation may not "ripen" until the insurer is made whole. Arkansas Courts follow this practice. However, there are various avenues that can be considered for the pursuit of subrogation including a joint prosecution agreement between the insured and insurer provided that that the parties waive and conflicts that may arise. And there could be a conflict over the adjustment, damages and valuations as well as the coverage afforded pursuanr to the policy of insurance.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
While I agree that much of what OP wrote is correct, without any kind of list of stolen TPG coins, there could be a good faith purchaser for value who would cut off the rights of the original owner. This is covered in the Uniform Commercial Code that has been pretty much adopted by all states in large measure.
Of course, other than quite recognizable near unique coins, most slabs could be cracked out and submitted to any of the major TPGs to "launder" its stolen history in any case.
This is close to off subject but I'll throw it out there anyway. Many years ago, when I was first starting on Ebay, USPS was a seller and they listed a large number of certified coins where the boxes were damaged and the coins got separated from the boxes or for what ever reason they paid the insurance on the coins and then took ownership. I remember some really nice certified coins going for, at that time, very inexpensive prices. If you had shipped the coins and they came loose from the packaging, or if someone had taken part of the coins out so that the insurance was paid to you, how likely would you have been to bid on your coins again, considering the large numbers of auctions and the relatively small number of people bidding on them? And if you won some, could you then list them on the registry? I'm not sure the registry even existed during that time frame, since we are talking about 15 or more years in the past.
Sadly, if the victim no longer wanted to be a, "victim" then the crime is not investigated.
Like you need heat, fuel and oxygen for a fire, with a crime you need a suspect, a law violation and a victim for a crime.
peacockcoins
Unless they notified you how would you necessarily know that the USPS was selling YOUR coins on eBay?
Don't you get the serial number when they grade your coins? These were, for the most part, certified coins, that the USPS had paid off on the insurance. They had good pictures of the coins and the slabs in their auctions.
The slabs and raw coins were owned by USPS after they paid insurance or they went unclaimed. They still have regular auctions.
https://appletowing.hibid.com/catalog/541660
Of course, but I wasn't aware of how they disposed of items they acquired through insurance payoffs or lost items that were never claimed or retuned to their owners. A smarter move would be to wholesale them off to a big dealer. I suppose somehow one can get wind that the coins are going up for auction.