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1989 Randy Johnson vs Ken Griffey Jr
olb31
Posts: 3,706 ✭✭✭✭✭
Here are the main stats
war randy #30, Griffey #57
Randy 2nd best KO's, Griffey #7 in HR's
Randy one of 4 Lefties to win 300
One of 10 with 300 wins and 3000 ko's
1989 Fleer Glossy psa 10 Randy $400, Griffey $4,000
1989 Upper deck psa 10 randy $150, Griffey $4,000
1989 Donruss psa 10 randy $75, Griffey $500
1989 topps tiffany traded psa 10, randy $2,200, Griffey $4,000
Card prices scream that Junior was a far superior player to Randy. The stats say other wise. At best let's agree they were comparable players at their positions, but boy do the card prices say something else. If I were a speculator, I would throw some cash at Randy.
Work hard and you will succeed!!
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IMHO due to MASSIVE print runs all the cards mentioned overvalued. Yep even the tiffanys
I think it's well established that Stats are only one component in a cards FMV otherwise Mays and Aaron cards would top Mantles instead of being dwarfed by them.
Happily awaiting Bo Jackson vs anyone threads.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
100 percent agree. You can purchase ample PSA 9's for Hall of Famers in the 70's for under $100 and the print runs for 9's are well below 200.
Bo knows Bro!!!
I think a vast majority of people see Bo as the greatest male athlete of all-time. I think Deion isn't far behind, as his cards begin to move rapidly also.
One could argue that Randy is one of the top 10 pitchers of all-time. IMO i think he is in the top 5. Randy also won a world series and was MVP I believe, Griffey rarely if ever made the playoffs (see Mike Trout).
I like Ken and he was an amazing player. But Randy was better and won more. Ken won 1 MVP, Randy won 4 Cy Youngs. The comparisons on the field lean toward Randy.
Mantle was a Yankee, if he played for the Cubs, his cards would be very average. PLus Mantle performed on the big stage (he actually played in a WS). He holds the WS records for HR's, Runs scored and RBI"s. Griffey never had a hit in a WS nor even played a game.
Griffey's cards should be worth a lot, but Randy should be right with him or within 90%.
I like both players. As for their cards, it depends on the niche you're looking at. There is a degree of rarity in the 1989 Fleer RJ Marlboro cards with some big $$$ sales on the clearest versions. Although less rare, I like the 1989 OPC and Topps Big RJ's too. For Griffey, I'm a big fan of centered copies of his 1989 Bowman Tiffany card (a relatively low print run with some centering issues). Currently 512 PSA 9s and 159 PSA10s of that card, and not all of these are well centered. Not super rare but good enough for me.
Because Junior is loved by everyone and Randy is about as cuddly as a saguaro.
Farewell Ryno.
If the print runs are low, how can they be ample? Shrug.
Farewell Ryno.
There are ample hall of fame cards for sale under $100 that have print runs under 200 in PSA 9.
Example: Let's say there are 15 hall of famers in the 77 set that have under 200 copies in PSA 9 that can be purchased for under $100.
Let's say there are 13 different hall of famers in the 79 set that have under 200 copies in PSA 9 that can be purchased for under $100.
Bottom line: A buyer has ample different hall of fame cards in the 70's he can purchase for under $100 with print runs under 200. There's many cards to collect and they also have low print runs which makes them good buys. The number of cards are many - only the print runs are low.
Hope it makes sense now.
Nope. This still doesn’t fit the narrative. The amount of available cards is vastly different. The discussion is about Griffey Jr vs Johnson. The reason you continue to push the concept that people should be putting money towards HOFers from the 70s is because that’s what you do. The proliferation of 80s cards is what allows more people to participate. Some will buy the cards because they like to collect them. Others will “overspend” on the cards because they have disposable cash and want to flex about how expensive they are. It’s a way of saying “Hey look at me! I’m stinking rich! Nah nah!” They don’t care a bit about bargains on ample PSA 9’s under a 100 bucks.
Farewell Ryno.
75 percent of my collection are cards from the 50's and 60's. I started collecting 70's cards the last couple of years.
You obviously have a problem with me so I suggest you block me or stop reading what I post. You remind me of a woman I broke up with many years ago.
Oh geez. Not this again. I applaud you for your collection. Good job. I pointed out a flaw in your post. That's all. Take it like an adult.
Farewell Ryno.
Maddux said it best..."Chicks dig the long ball". Pitchers have never seen a massive hobby love overall, not even for the greatest. You hardly ever hear Cy Young, Walter Johnson or Christy Mathewson being mentioned for early baseball discussions and collecting. It's Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Wagner. Warren Spahn had monster numbers and he barely solicits a yawn from collectors. Koufax and Ryan seem to be rare exceptions that have a greater following than most.
Griffey was all smiles and lovable. Randy was big and ugly and looked mean. He killed birds!
Yes your doing it again. I'm not a sap. You came after me twice this week and I took the high road the first time. How we proceed is up to you. If you make things personal I will do the same. If your polite I will do the same.
I disagreed with you. That's all.
Farewell Ryno.
LOL ok dude whatever you say.
can't we all just get along?
Credit to Bo, but I believe Jim Thorpe has him beat as far as all-around greatest male athlete of all time.
Statistics aren't the only factor when it comes to the hobby. With Ken Griffey Jr, you're looking at a guy that was the 1987 #1 Draft Pick and debuted at 19 as the son of an active major leaguer, which is pretty damn special. The Kid had a great smile and personality to go with it. Then that swing of his was like moving art. One of the few #1 picks that backed it up with his performance on the field. He had no off the field troubles and was a great role model. Of course we know his impact on the hobby in 1989. Now what separated him from the rest of the players aside from that? The man had one of the most successful brands of all-time that extended into pop culture. He partnered with Nike and had his own "Air" shoe line. Then you had the most important partnership, with Nintendo. The golden age of home console video games had Ken Griffey Jr. as THE baseball star of the 90s. So you had a young generation that was playing video games that may have never set foot on a diamond. Griffey has transcended generations. He's moved into legendary territory as time has elapsed. In my opinion, the "Mickey Mantle" of that generation of baseball. Overall, with his impact in baseball, the hobby and pop culture, there is just no comparison to other players of his era with one exception, and he's already been mentioned.
I also noticed his Seattle Marines Autos have risen in price the last year or so. What were once $400 autographs are now 2x-4x. Pretty crazy.
Although that's a really good debate, the problem is there is no living human that either remember or saw him perform in his last professional game which was a the Cardinals vs Bears game in 1928. So all you have are accomplishments and accolades. The other problem is there is practically no video of him playing in competitive pro sports or the Olympics. On the Bo Jackson side of the argument, you have all of the above, specifically highlight videos of him in two sports playing at an unbelievable level. The other part is, that we get to know him. We understand his personality and the man he is just by the decisions he's made. From not wanting to run the 40 in college,then finally doing it for his coach, running a 4.2 and us knowing if it really happened. If you hadn't read his story on the Tampa Bay Bucs while he was in college, go do it. The crazy Sunday and Monday night games.Then the most successful athlete marketing campaign ever. His comeback from what would normally disable someone for life with an artificial hip and go on to play pro baseball again. We not only know the athlete, we know the man. Even today he's successful with his TCG. Just an icon.
Milo of Croton was the greatest male athlete. No one compares. Nice try. Jim Thorpe.
I'm going with Leonidas of Rhodes.
Farewell Ryno.
With Griffey you could add this to his positives. He has a clear, legible autograph.
Also Jr I believe is generous dude with charity and the like, Johnson according to those in the know is a rather nasty miser.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Isn’t this basically the longtime Mantle v Mays/Aaron argument? I agree with a lot of the Mays/Aaron points but Mantle is still the top hobby guy from that era.
Nice observations.
Griffey was great, his nice and has a nice smile
Johnson is tall and ugly and not well liked (supposedly).
And those qualities may give a player/card more upside. Quite possible.
As far as Mantle vs mays/aaron, maybe this comparison is close. But Johnson won the WS MVP, not Griffey. Mantle's prices are about playing with the Yankees and being the best WS player of all-time, more so than his regular season stats.
To me Trout and Griffey are the same players. Both superstars with no playoff experience. THeir cards sell great and everyone likes them. But fell short of the ultimate.
Like the NFL, the Bills went to 4 Super Bowls in a row, But for the era the Cowboys rule. Emmitt is the stud not Thurman, Aikman is the stud not Kelly. For some reason Trout and Griffey are more heavily collected than Freeman and Johnson, even though
Griffey transcended the game, Trout for a while was modern statistians dream. Legends last, math is boring.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Math is boring, however, numbers don't lie. Although approximating, I can tell you that over the past 3 months 13,000+ Griffey Jr. RC's have sold on eBay. During the same period, only 4,600 Johnson RC's sold. So, Junior is at least 3X as popular, it's not only the dollar signs. Vastly more people will pay up for his cards because of demand.
Farewell Ryno.
No doubt. Trout's cards sell for 3 or 4 times more than Freeman's.
I have many Griffey rookies and I agree he was a great player. But.....having watched both for decades, Randy was the more dominant player. His WS heroics matched Orel's. Threw for 100 MPH, I think he hit 102, not just once but many times.
And I know the board loves WAR -- I hear about it every time I diss Trout. Randy is 101 to 84 Johnson.
WS MVP
4 time cy young winner
2 no-hitters
303 wins
2nd all-time KO's
Hard to top all of that by any pitcher all-time.
But my whole topic was about the card prices. Hard to think that at some point Randy's cards seem/feel very undervalued by the collector/investor.
It may take a while but you may end up being correct. Griffey's UD prices are completely unexplainable based on everything you have said(and more). Somehow Griffey's UD RC has become 'iconic' yet back in the early 90's it was Frank Thomas LEAF rookie card that commanded much more money(look at the old Beckett's). Heck, in 1989 it was Billy Ripken that was the 'chase card' of the year.....yet Griffey has been retroactively slapped with that iconic title when it never was that status at that time(at least not until the late 90's). Even in the late 90's Sosa leaf RC was prolly more valuable than Griffey UD RC.
I will say though that once that iconic label is slapped on something it is very hard to shake off, even if it is not even remotely deserved.
.
1989 Upper Deck revolutionized the sports card industry. It was a huge leap over what Topps, Fleer, and Donruss were doing. Score came out a year before Upper Deck. But, Score, to me, seemed like a cheap product even though it did about the same thing as Upper deck. With the color printing on both sides of the card. Upper Deck had the hologram. Upper Deck was a premium product. Soon after Upper Deck was released, Topps Stadium club and Fleer Ultra were released to compete with Upper Deck. That's the way it looked from my perspective anyway.
Leaf was considered a rare set in 1990. Now it seems like there's more than enough 90 Leaf.
@olb31
To add to my above post. Having been deeply involved back then, it was always the 1990 Leaf Frank Thomas card that stood as the premium and most important rookie card through most of the 90's...not the Griffey, from that junk wax era.
If I had removed myself from the hobby in 1998(but still followed baseball), and I picked up a 1990 Leaf Thomas and a 1989 UD rookie today, I would be shocked to think the Griffey would be more valuable. I still look at those cards and my instinct still feels the superiority of the Leaf Thomas card over the Griffey.
I wonder if you should check the disparity in value in the 1990 Leaf Thomas vs the 1989 UD Griffey. The PSA 10 pops are similar and the Griffey sells for $2,5000 and the Thomas for $175. Thomas was a vastly superior hitter. Vastly superior. Griffey edges him overall as a player, but not a $2,5000 to $175 gap.
@olb31 wow, I have not paid much attention the last six months and did not realize the Griffey's are doing this now:
I saw a couple active ones at $2,800 to $3,800 via auction and I had to rub my eyes to make sure I was seeing the right thing. Then saw the complete ones. What the heck happened? They were $1,800 not too long ago, then $2,500 very recently(last time I looked at least).
I missed the prices you put in your initial post. Dang. Things have gotten crazy.
As I said, DEMAND.
Farewell Ryno.
You aren't kidding.
175 on the Thomas is being generous more like 110-145. 140 or so only if perfectly centered. In late 2023 they even dropped below a 100. I picked up 1 dead perfect centering at a local show then for 95
Good points BTW , I also remember 1990 Thomas was THE card until the late 90s.
Now just imagine the 89 UD Griffey was as condition sensitive as the 93 SP Jeter...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Probably late 40 early 50-year-olds with disposable income thinking it's a good investment or re-capturing their youth & simpler times. Nostalgia is powerful. Congratulations to the sellers........
For the Bo crowd: Jim Thorpe is the greatest male athlete of all time. Two Olympic gold medals in decathlon and pentathlon. Played professionally in baseball, basketball (no NBA yet) and football. He is in the pro football hall of fame; the college football hall of fame, the US Olympic Hall of Fame and the Track and Field Hall of Fame.
All HOF pitchers are undervalued except Paige, Koufax and Ryan.
Seems like they are outliers and decade after decade the market has spoken on all others
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Why is the demand/value so much higher for the 1989 UD Griffey compared to the 1989 Donruss Rated Rookie Griffey?
The Rated Rookie has a population in PSA 10 that is half of the Upper Deck population, yet it sells for $600 compared to $3,800 for the UD....and the Rated Rookie is the enduring popular brand in the hobby. The Rated Rookie brand is 'iconic'.
I know it's a stretch, but the iconic nature of the 1989 UD Griffey Jr card #1 seems to resemble that of cards such as '52T Mantle or T-206 Wagner. It's weird, but there's just something about that card. Maybe it's hypnosis. Or the simple fact that they're plentiful, everyone knows it, but at a price point many more can still afford in a PSA 10. It's attainable.
Farewell Ryno.
You aren't wrong...actually obviously you are correct because the price points back it up.
I personally can't see the allure for the price of that card. I couldn't even see myself paying more than $50 for that card in any grade(obviously I would buy a PSA 10 for a $100 knowing I could flip it for a profit). There are just too darn many of them, and 8's are often indistinguishable from 10's. Everyone has their own tastes obviously though.
I like the look of the 1989 Donruss set too. If I had to pick my favorite Griffey rookie it would be the 1989 donruss one. It's interesting that Griffey Jr (and Trout) can muster up such a following and they both have barely ever played in any playoff games and neither have ever played in one world series combined. Part of Jordan's allure (I would guess) would be the fact he won 3 straight world championships twice. Same with Kobe, lots of championships.
Just being a good regular season player (banks, killebrew) didn't used to take the price of their cards through the roof.
Maybe it is because there is so much exposure to players(from the cable TV era to now the internet era) that one need not wait until the playoffs to see them play.
Mantle playing(and excelling) in the WS was often times the only way someone in the country might see him play and he was in the WS nearly every year. It certainly vaulted him into the stratosphere over similarly talented players and turned him into a legend, a legend that still has never relented.
How much should a HOF pitcher be worth?
I don't know if you've ever opened 1989 Donruss. I believe the Griffey is likely double printed. Or Triple printed? Or? In my experience, I'd get a 2 or 3 Griffeys in a box. Donruss, at that time. was one of the worst products available.
600 dollars for a 1989 Donruss Griffey looks completely stupid to me.
I know you guys will say of the 2 or 3 Griffeys I get in my 1989 Donruss box, "But they're not 10s!"
I figure the guys who hype 1989 Donruss Griffey do it because they have a truck load of wax sitting in their garage.
I was watching a rerun of American Dad last night and the 1989 UD Griffey was part of the story. Steve (the son) ripped a pack that was all Griffey RCs and it was clear they were referencing the UD RC.
I also think an homage to it showed up in a Macklemore (he was a popular white rapper a few years ago) video. The demand for that card goes beyond hardcore collectors.
A PSA 9 is not going to sell for much more than the cost of grading plus ebay's fees. On a bad ay, you might lose money on a "mint" Griffey rookie.
So yes, "But they're not 10's!" is correct.
The price of the "10" Upper Deck rookie is just insane!
89UD wax has appreciated considerably as well. And with all the massive inventory that hit the market this is impressive.
I am tempted to open with Griffey at this price for a PSA10.
John
According to my high school Coach, he was quiet and to himself. Today he is a professional photographer. So I'd imagine he's not "nasty" per se, just someone that would rather be left alone to observe and take photos.
5 million 1989 Donruss cards printed- 1 million 1989 Upper Deck cards printed.
Also its Upper Deck with a history of iconic sets. 1989 is the business