Counterfeit Morgan 1885?
BDCrouch1
Posts: 14 ✭
Hello,
I made an impulse buy on a Morgan dollar on eBay about a week ago. The seller, who specializes in coins, has a 99.8% positive rating with over 51,000 stars, so I did not question the genuineness of the coin.
After I got it, I sent images to an AI program, and it flagged it. It suggested that I take it out of its cardboard holder and weight it and perform the ring test. If I do think it is counterfeit, I don't want to take it out of its holder since I want to try to return it to the seller how I got it.
I took it to a local coin shop, and the owner said it looks genuine to him, but he did not weigh it nor did he put it on the sigma metalytics machine. I gladly took his word for it, but later that day, I found listings on eBay from a seller from Taiwan who was definitely selling counterfeit coins (user rating of 80% and extremely low prices on his coins), and the cardboard holder had the same type of print on the left as the coin I received.
So, here is what the AI said about the coin:
"1. Surfaces & Luster
The surfaces appear unusually reflective and flat for a circulated Morgan. Even proof-like uncirculated examples usually show a more cartwheel luster under light.
The coin has a very “chrome-like” appearance, which is common with Chinese fakes that are struck from dies cut via scanning.
- Details & Devices
Liberty’s ear and hairline details lack the sharpness usually seen on genuine Morgans. There's a sort of "mushy" quality — not quite soft, but overly polished, which can be a sign of a cast or digitally milled fake.
On the reverse, the eagle’s feathers and the leaves look flattened in spots where they should show distinct texture, especially on a high-grade piece.
- Font & Spacing
The stars, lettering, and date spacing look off in subtle ways:
Look closely at “E PLURIBUS UNUM” and the spacing between “ONE DOLLAR” — it doesn’t match genuine examples, where spacing is extremely precise.
The tail of the “S” in “STATES” looks abnormally long and crooked.
- Mintmark
I don’t see a mintmark (which means it's from Philadelphia), which is common for 1885 — but ironically, this is also a favorite date to fake since it’s relatively valuable in higher grades."
Attached are the pics of the coin that I took, two pictures from the listing, and a screenshot of the coin I found being sold by a seller in Taiwan which has "print" that matches the print on the coin I got on the cardbaord holder.
Thanks in advance for any assistance!
Barry
Answers
I think that if you trust AI more than you trust your own skills, you're in the wrong hobby.
I agree. The 1885 looks genuine, though certainly neither prooflike nor anywhere close to “Gem” quality.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
does not the flip holder from the Taiwanese coin matching mine (same font--look at the G and the E in each) raise a concern?
does not the flip holder from the Taiwanese coin matching mine (same font--look at the G and the E in each) raise a concern?
It's the real deal. Not going to neg on you though. Best to ask than find out 20 years from now.
bob
Thanks... and I can handle the negative comments--I am a big boy now, so I only cry a little when someone is a poopy head to me.
The flipholder, or whatever it is called--the lettering on the left uses the same font and same "style" as the fake coin being sold by the Taiwanese seller. Still no reason for concern?
@BDCrouch1
bob
Only very slight concern, as the hand written numerals 2 and 5 look very different on the two coin holders. And some sellers of counterfeits also sell genuine coins.
I recommend including a link to the listings of the seller of the 1885, so forum members can get an idea as to what he sells.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
and there is an uptick of "low feedback" sellers using pics of the genuine thing to legitimize a counterfeit's auction
looks genuine to me. i'm wondering why no one else thinks it is cleaned. i've seen this morgan seller's photos on ebay. i am uncomfortable with their items shown, but can't say anymore than that due to forum rules
It might be this outfit:
https://www.ebay.com/str/phoenixcoins?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l170197
peacockcoins
The OP makes quite an impression...
If I were the eBay seller, I think I'd appreciate if someone were to forward this thread to me. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/388506920445
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?sid=rojo-86&_pgn=1&isRefine=true&_trksid=p4429486.m2548.l2567
Genuine, I believe.
It looks cleaned to me, too.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As I was looking, I was about to say “bingo”, until I saw their feedback score was 100%, as opposed to the 99.8% mentioned in the opening post.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/388506920445
One outfit is from Ravinna, OH and the other from Stow, OH. These two towns are ten miles apart. I think they are the same seller using two different eBay accounts.
peacockcoins
May I offer a belated “bingo”?
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it’s genuine, but I also think it’s been messed with and isn’t original. That style of photo is almost exclusively used by sellers trying to hide things.
The 1885 looks genuine but appears to have been polished.
1885 Morgan sells for high dollar only for very high grade, 66+ or higher, your coin is not high grade. A certified MS64 can be purchased for under $100. It’s a common date dollar.
It's a real 1885 US Morgan dollar with the image taken in suboptimal lighting and then photo-manipulated to increase the contrast and slightly alter the white balance. The coin is not PL, is scuffed up pretty good and may have altered surfaces, but it does not appear to be counterfeit.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
From your pictures, the coin appears to be genuine. My advice to you is if you think that coin in question raises a red flag, why purchase it at all? Such a common date with hundreds of thousands available in TPG holders. AI is questionable at best. Learn to grade by looking at many many TPG 1885 Morgan dollars. You may need to do your homework before purchasing any new coins.
Handwriting is not the same. They have the same label maker?
Thanks.
I noticed the handwriting was different, but the stamped print uses exactly the same font and also the same spacing. Both the holder that the 1885 coin that I got from the US seller and the fake 1921 Peace Dollar being sold by the Taiwanese eBayer for $23.99 (or best offer) definitely came from the same place.
TMI, but I did not originally upload the pic to ChatGPT because I thought it was a fake--I just wanted to see what it would say about it in general. As stated, once I got reassured by a local dealer that it is fine, I was good with that... later that day, I did a Google image search, and found the Taiwanese counterfeit coin using the flipholder that is a match to the one I got.
About 5 years ago, I stumbled across a website that was a counterfeit seller's dream. It was a site that allowed the user to buy pretty much a counterfeit of any US coin ever made--whether gold coins from the 1800s or silver proof sets from the 1900s. I went down to a local coin shop in South Bend, Indiana, and pulled the site up for him--he was dumbfounded. I went to another coin shop in Mishawaka, Indiana, at a later point in time, and the manager and his associate told me of how they visited a Chinese company where they were actively making counterfeit coins and were given a tour; per this coin shop, the business owners of that factory in China were very proud of their precision.
So, it is a given that counterfeits are being made that are almost exact replicas, if not exact replicas of original coins. Let's assume that people like to make money off such counterfeits. If, just for instance, a Chinese counterfeiter produces 5,000 slightly flawed looking 1900 P Morgan dollars that are made with 90% pure silver and 10% copper (unlike counterfeit coins made out of other materials) and sells them for, arbitrarily, $6.00 over spot on silver, which would be roughly $34.00 right now, to dealers, and then dealers turn around and sell them on eBay at 50% over what they paid for it. Is this scenario farfetched?
Years ago, I had almost 170 Morgan and Peace dollars; I had to sell for financial reason, and have been buying more slowly here and there. I used to do the ring tests, the magnet tests, weight tests, the slippery feel test, etc. and actually found a few countefeits doing this.
This coin was an impulse buy and I uploaded it to ChatGPT after I got it because I wanted to get its perspective (I did not at all suspect it was a fake at that point in time--so the red flags came after the purchase).
Given that I had a reputable and somewhat large coin dealer in Mishawaka, Indiana, tell me that they (the owner and his associate) visited a counterfeiting operation in China where the owners of that operation not only gave them a tour, but also boasted about their precision--they said the could make exact replicas of silver and gold US (and world) coins, and the shop owner from Mishawaka said they were right--I believe there are more counterfeits out there than those who are mindful of counterfeits are aware of.
In addition, I somehow came across a Chinese seller online years ago that offered a large variety of counterfeit coins--including proof sets. I showed this site to the owner of a coin shop in South Bend, Indiana, and the owner was dumbfounded. I either did report it or tried to report it to some governmental field office--if I did, I never received a follow up.
So, what is to stop counterfeiters from making exact replicas of coins, using the correct metal compostion (which is not always done), and selling them just over spot by the thousands to certain dealers in the US? If the dealer can get a 50% markup on them, the counterfeiter is happy, the retailer is happy, and the purchaser is happy, but unaware they have a fake.
Maybe they cannot do as good of a job counterfeiting as I have been led to believe, but, regardless, it is a very strange coincidence that the flipholder on the Taiwanese eBayer's fake 1921 Peace Dollar that he is selling for $23.99 has the exact same font and typecase on the left as does the coin from the US seller.
Thanks for your thoughts!!!
I have no idea how this is one of eBay's "top rated sellers" , but they're pumping out some serious volume of this "RARE, HI GRADE" misleading crap. The better date coins are low grade circ thats polished/whizzed to high hell and photographed with the "mono-chrome" effect. OP, it's probably not worth the time and effort to return this one but theres plenty of sellers on eBay whose pictures will look natural. I'd suggest you buy graded coins if you want anything more than junk silver.
☠️
Here's OP's coin:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/388588253068?itmmeta=01JYFM45TXFG861XG8Q8YMX436&hash=item5a79aa2f8c:g:Q6wAAOSwz8loT
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Thanks... Yep, I was trying not to call out the seller, because they seemed legit, but you found them. Also, I didn't want to call out ChatGPT by name either in case it ever gets to where it can retaliate...
So, I "only" paid $51.00 for the coin--I would not have paid more for it than that, and though I am not pleased with it as it is, it, assuming that it is real, is worth probably about what I paid for it.
As stated initially, I didn't upload it to ChatGPT because I thought it was a fake, and when I was alerted by it that it may be, a local coin shop in South Bend, Indiana, told me it is the real deal. After this point in time, I did a Google image search, and found the Taiwanese eBayer selling the fake 1921 Peace Dollar that has the exact same font on the flipholder on the left, and the same boldness, spacing, and size.
Today, I took it to another coin shop in South Bend, and pointed out the Taiwanese coin's flipholder compared to mine. He wrinkled his eyebrows, and agreed that that was disconcerting, but ran it through various checks, and told me the coin was good.
I can't help but wonder if some countefeiters are making large volumes of old US coins (and newer ones) with precision, using the correct metal compositions, and selling them just over spot to some retailers in the US, who then are getting 50% plus markups on them. From talking to at least one coin shop, I know there are replicas now that are extremely convincing.
Thanks for the insight you provided!
Here are the pics of the two flipholders (the coin I got and the Taiwanese fake) for quick reference perchance you want to take another look:
I wouldn't expect the handwriting to be the same--but maybe on the label maker... it seems like a stretch that that could be the case, but maybe less of stretch than the holders having come from the same source.
thanks.
What doesn't support the counterfeit theory is that they have pretty high starting bids on all the better dated stuff, and many of these coins just wouldn't really be economically feasible to counterfeit, when you can buy them at melt to begin with. Most dealers just wholesale common date silver dollars like these, they are difficult to make money on unless they're using deceptive sales practices and misrepresenting the condition. Selling fees on eBay plus shipping is likely no less than $10 a coin so while some might be loss leaders when they sell for $35 or $40, the sheer volume and number of coins that sell for $50+ make it a profitable racket.
One thing I can ascertain is that this seller does not have the collector's best interests at heart, and I don't mind outing them when I see deception. When I see a polished VG walker labeled "HI GRADE", that is over the line for me.
With that said, this mint mark on a 79-cc looks a bit funky, can anyone opine? It looked like it might have been altered but i'm not positive.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/205314342380?itmmeta=01JYFPT0B5RCW7EPHDBQDZ14PT&hash=item2fcdb03dec:g:WCgAAOSwUZhnvUAh
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Got it...
The only two sellers I know to avoid are the ones with the initials of AK and MD (I think they are the same outfit running under two names). Not counterfeits, that I know of, but they misrepresent what is being auctioned off.
I'll be of no help on the CC thing, obviously (unless you'll let me consult ChatGPT ;0) ).
The 1921 photo for the listing was stolen from the first guy. What you will receive is not that coin (and flip) but rather a cheap Chinese counterfeit.
peacockcoins
That was my guess, as well.
AI makes mistakes
That does make sense... thanks.
Makes the most sense! Thanks.
Tell me it isn't true!!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe I’m wrong, but to these eyes, those are small somewhat more rounded CC’s used only on the first year of production for 1878-CC Morgan Silver Dollars. The following years the Mint somewhat elongated and enlarged the mintmarks. Any other thoughts from any Morgan experts? Those don’t look like they belong on an 1879 CC.