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Dentil count on U.S. TRADE DOLLARS
4Redisin
Posts: 596 ✭✭✭
Due to the new Trade dollar book by Kejo and the postings by Lermish, Tradedollarnut, the Redskin guy, and many other long-time posters of these coins (I should have looked up to mention before posting), please let me be bold and start this discussion EXCLUSIVELY for Trade dollars. I've noticed this is done already for other series. f it catches on, it will go a long way to bring more information together in a timely manner aside from the SLCC Journal. We may even stir up enough good stuff to get Joe and others to do a Second Edition, but I would not wish that hard task on anyone!
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Could you change your opening statement to "LSCC" since it is the Liberty Seated Collector Club. thanks in advance. James
Too late to edit. Besides, no one is interested. There is a Barber thread and a Buffalo thread but no interest in this one. I plan to post a few reed counts here for the few I know of that are not in the new book. It's too bad so many are slabbed already w/o this info.
I have been getting deeper into the new Trade Dollar book. I don't think anyone except another author/researcher like RBW or the guys who wrote that Seated dollar reference can appreciate the work involved by Joe to get it published. I hope a Second Edition will be planed as more info comes out. Right now, I'm intrigued by the middle year hubs that were not included. I thought a hub change is something major and anyone can see that the segments on the eagle's legs have a different number of segments indicating something major change going on to me.
Next, in an effort to add something that probably should be included in a future addition I started this discussion which never generated any interest. Perhaps the reed counts for the different dates and mints as done for Morgan dollars will create some interest. Unfortunately, a large number of Trade dollars are slabbed. Hopefully, someone at a TPGS was crazy enough to keep records and can add to this as is may help both the authenticators and counterfeiters.
1877-P 2/2 192 reeds
1878-S Large S 2/2 182 reeds
It's not too late to edit.
I checked one of my threads from a few years ago and I can still edit it.
The "gear" icon is still there, but it is higher than the usual spot, and it is larger. Give it a try and you will see.
The reed counts have potential as markers.
They were used in the Logan and McCloskey Federal Half Dimes (1998) book to establish the full emission sequence.
But as you stated, with so many coins in slabs now, some counts will not be possible.
But I suspect many are still raw, so some data could be obtained.
Do they follow a pattern, such as being equal across years for trade dollars minted in San Francisco?
It will admit that I have not attempted to do systematic reed counts on seated half dimes, even though I have read they differ between proof and business strike, and for San Francisco.
I think it's too early to be discussing a 2nd edition to Joe's book.
Let's just celebrate that the book was finished after so much work over so many years.
But you should consider writing an article for the Gobrecht Journal on the hub changes you mentioned, and/or the reed counts.
Those could stand on their own and could be interesting.
If you have photos of the hub changes, why not post them here.
OP = @Married2Coins
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Hopefully, this thread will not be considered in any way as a critique of Joes work. I'm pointing to the future - whenever the next reference comes out. It may be written by someone else. Are you aware that there are now three major relatively new (right after another) coffee table size books on Early quarters when at one time there were none? Additionally, judging by what I have recently read, the Trade dollar section of the Bowers book (as good as it is) was out-of- date the moment it was published. We all learn from the research of ourselves and others.
I tried to start a long-running discussion devoted exclusively to Trade dollarswhere several of the advanced collectors here could concentrate their posts. And members like me could ask questions.
Right now, I'm going to be counting reeds for any raw coins I am allowed to touch or buy. The information on the hubs you seek was already published in the Gobrecht Journal and mentioned in Joe's book. There were no images of all the design differences for each mid-year hub - just the shape of the eagle's back feathers. However, a look on the Internet revealed a leg segment change (5 or 6 segments) as another way to identify dubs. I'll leave that job to the Trade dollar experts.
Here we go again...sigh.
Thanks. The fact that you have posted may make this discussion become a "thing." If that coin is raw, will you please count the reeds without leaving a fingerprint. I am 100% sure that different dates and Mints have specific collar reeds. My bet is that all Proofs will have the same reed count although they were struck with different hubs over the length of the series.
It’s not raw
In that case would you please count the number of beads on the obverse rim and compare it with the number of beads on the reverse rim? I have a theory I won't expose until you come back with those numbers.
Please count each side a couple of times to confirm your count is correct.
Then look up other Proof Trade dollars and count the beads on them and compare that count with raw Trade dollars and the number of reedings each coin has?
I'll stand-by for your completed work, but please don't take too long. I promised my wife I'd take her out to the Olive Garden tonight.
This is really funny.
But not as funny as telling TDN not to get a fingerprint on his top pop proof trade dollar as he counts the reeds.
It's like a T-ball coach telling 1956 Mickey Mantle to watch out for the curveball. Thanks coach!🙄🙄🙄
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Of course it's not😂
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
What?
Oh ok - now I see why there weren’t any answers in this thread. Got it
I suppose you are being sarcastic, but since you didn't include a smiley face icon:
You can count the dentils yourself, as they are completely clear on the photos.
The standard way is to mark the photo every 10 dentils to keep track.
The dentil count varies greatly on some capped bust half dimes,
which makes it possible to attribute some lower grade coins from a small portion of visible distinct dentils.
But by 1874 the dentils might be on the hub on Trade Dollars and would not vary much.
@yosclimber with the mic drop!
Clever problem solving skills.
But since you made it sound so easy I counted them. 183
Took a minute and I realized they are practically all different sizes, vary in thickness and overall shape, and have random different spacing from gaps to bridges.
183
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I came up with 182.
Please recount.
peacockcoins
LOL, I hope you don't choke on your dinner too. I plan to try your suggestion. You see, you and your friends are late to the party. Your attempt at humor caused me to recall that in the Logan and McClosky reference on Federal Half Dimes the authors discovered and included the different bead counts found on each die pair. The way dies were made was different than for Trade dollars so I don't expect the bead count will change (if at all) as much as they did back then. We'll see.
Counting beads will be much harder than counting edge reeds. I'll post my findings here in the future so we will all be more informed posters.
For now, another reed count:
1875-S Large S 1/1 182 reeds.
Actually, I think both Mickey Mantle and TDN would have the CLASS AND PROFESSIONALISM to thank
the lowly T-ball coach for his suggestion. BTW, I look forward to your contributions of either the beads or reeds count for coins in your collection. This information would make a great addition to this series. I know a collector who has a Proof that I'll be able to examine this weekend and I'll try not to put any fingerprints on it.
I tried to use AI for this, I was far too lazy to try myself. I think it's going to be some time before robots are able to successfully revolt against humans and take over the world....
My prompts are in bold.
Grok, I need you to count the number of beads on the obverse inner rim, and then do the same for the reverse. Do not mess this up, and don't give me a monologue in response. Just the count, thank you.
Obverse: 88
Reverse: 88
no
I apologize for any confusion. Could you please clarify what you'd like me to do differently? I'm here to assist!
try again
Obverse: 90
Reverse: 88
the number of beads grok. each little bump along the outside
Obverse: 90
Reverse: 88
there should be close to 200 on each side
Upon re-examining the image, I apologize for the earlier oversight. The number of beads (small bumps) along the outer rim of the 1874 Trade Dollar is approximately 190 on the obverse and 190 on the reverse, aligning closely with the expectation of around 200 on each side.
I dont need "approximately" I need the exact count for crying out loud.
After a careful recount of the beads (small bumps) along the outer rim of the 1874 Trade Dollar in the provided image, the exact count is 192 on the obverse and 190 on the reverse.
are you sure?
Yes, I have double-checked the image and counted the beads (small bumps) along the outer rim of the 1874 Trade Dollar. The exact count is 192 on the obverse and 190 on the reverse.
You have brought great dishonor to your creators grok. Go to bed now.
I apologize for any disappointment caused. I'm here to assist whenever you need me. If you'd like me to forget this conversation, you can click the book icon beneath this message and select this chat from the menu to manage it yourself. Take care!
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What a great idea! AI should be able to do this from an image. Beads were used on some coins but dentils were used on most including Trades. I wonder if the result would be better if you asked about "Teeth" or "Dentils"? Additionally, I have found that just as Morgan dollars, there may be different counts for the same date-mint. I have to count several times and on different days to make sure there are no errors before I post a number here. I'll do a Proof Trade this weekend.
Also, if I am possibly the first person to count the edge reeds on an 1875-S 1/1 Trade an posted my research on CU, if you asked AI about the reed count would it scan the Internet and just give the number I posted? Using the flashlight reflector trick, or Heritage images, there should be no reason AI could not be taught to correctly count the dentils on every coin in every coin series within a few days! WOW! Since there are several (3?) main AI Systems, they could verify each other's count. Capped Bust quarters would be a good place to start and I'll bet the dentil count would vary just as the Half Dimes.
Are we getting excited yet?? Unfortunately, I cannot think of much that a dentil count could do. The coins that are hard to attribute usually are worn smooth around the rim.
Hey, AI should be able to detect the slight difference from a transfer die fake and a real coin if each was BU.
PS I'm going to print the 74 proof and count the dentils this weekend BUT I HOPE another member does it before me, LOL
There is a very excellent book on trade dollars by John M. Willem titled "The United States Trade Dollar" 1959, 1965 and also later re-issues.
191 pages, includes the history of the trade dollar and how it came about.
I highly recommend this book for Trade dollar collectors.
I saw the 1877 Proof. It has 189 edge reeds. Unfortunately, it is one of the middle hub combo's that most consider to be unimportant minor improvements to the normal Type 2 dies. I have not read up on them enough and did not have access to my Gobrecht Journals where more info is.
Additionally, he had a raw 1875-CC with some chops I could tell it was not a modern, granular China fake but I'm not an expert. It looked real to me with a reed count of 190. Now I will say for sure that there will be several different reed counts at the same Mint and for different Mints. If a few members are able to post reed counts for their raw coins a pattern should quickly emerge. Thanks for reading.
Is this the trade that went PL?
God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️
Maybe it’s late but I still count 183. 4 times just now
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Very important: Please say if you are posting an edge reed count or a dentil count. I got very confused and though my reed count was wrong. I do it several times before posting because I'll guarantee there will be some date and mint coins struck with 2 different edge collars. Hey, that may be what happened to the Morgans. A collar broke and they stuck another in that was not identical.
I'm going to print TDN's image on paper and put a line on EACH tooth I count. That way one time will be enough.
Thanks guys for what you are doing. > @Aspie_Rocco said:
183 dentils on the obverse.
This thread is a mess. Now we're confusing reeds and dentils? Can someone explain why we care what the dentil count is?
I'm the one who became confused.
I started this discussion to learn more about Trade dollars. Getting information on edge reed counts into print will only make a great reference book better. Additionally, we may find some differences in border teeth that could confirm that completely new hubs exist for the mid-dates rather than just insignificant touch-ups to the well documented Type 1 and Type 2 hubs.
Besides, some of us here are just playing at being "Numismatists?"
Yep.
Type I/II and Type I/I chopmarked. ? I’m not certain except they’re raw.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
The coin with the chop mark is aI/I
The other coin is from the middle hubs (2M/2M) on page 27 & 28 of Joe's book. I'll need to do more reading, but I believe that tiny "s" was only used on the middle dates. And here is a question: Philadelphia made the dies. Why the tiny "s" and what other denomination coins was that punch used on?
I finally got back from a vacation is just have a couple of comments:
1) TDN's Trade Dollars are always amazing!!!!!
2) I always assumed that denticles (not reeds) were the same as long they came off the master hub (from the galvano). I guess I'd be surprised if there were a lot of variation....maybe between Type I, Type IIM and IIL obverse and reverses (since all six had different master hubs).
3) Reeds (the third side of the coin) is a different animal. Collars, I'm guessing, were probably part of each mints repertoire. I did a minor study with Dan Huntsinger many years ago and this is in Chapter 2. With one exception, TDs stayed in he range of 178 to 194 reeds. They are a PITA to count and fraught with counting mistakes. Very hard to do in a slab. The outlier to this reed range was a 1876-S with a reed count 157 (in Chapter 2). Given the challenge of counting and the possibility that collars likely changed as frequently as dies changed, it was too big a challenge.
4) On TwoSides2aCoin question of mintmark sizing, great question. Someone could easily check on this. The medium S (used on just one 76-S (TDV-23)), might have been used on the Half Dollar reverse. The small S mintmark is a great question for San Francisco coinage experts. (anyone have Bill Bugert's books around?)
keoj
Welcome Back!
I think you will be proven correct. My guess that all the proofs will have the same number of teeth is wrong. I suspect we will be able to prove the middle dates are indeed a completely different hub and not a minor retouch by counting the teeth around the edge besides the very obvious design difference.
The 1/1 Proof 1873 had 183 teeth. Confirmed by two members. I've counted the teeth on one 1882 2/2 Proof and came up with 182 which needs to be confirmed by another member since the numbers are so close.
I'm reading the book and think this forum may be a good place to list corrections for the next edition. Due to the detailed nature of this long-desired reference, there should be some corrections which will not change its significance or value:
PP#23, twenty-five lines down. "...as a Type II reverse." Should read "...as a Type II obverse.
I got to pp#31 in the book tonight where some reed counts are listed. My counts in the post above are sort of worthless w/o the hub types listed. Joe's book has a count of 188 for a 75-CC I/II. Since I don't know the hubs or authenticity of the 1875-CC I posted, the count may not hold OR a different hub used the 190 count I got, OR a counterfeit has 190 reeds. I don't think the con was a fake though.
I think that is a ridiculous idea. I'm easily annoyed but hard to offend yet... you have managed to offend me with this pablum.
This book was in process for 15+ years and just came out a couple of months ago. You became interested in trade dollars about a month ago and have proceeded to spam the forum and the absolute titans of trade dollar collecting about reed and dentil counts for some unknown reason.
The idea of you publicly nitpicking random typos in public of an amazing and self published book the moment it has been released is absolutely nauseating.
You have nothing to add to the trade dollar conversation. Be quiet, read, and learn. Spew your uninformed nonsense about other topics.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
+1
Tell us how you really feel.
I'm very pleased you have chosen to join the thread - again!
I have only posted good things about this excellent, long awaited, desirable reference [it will probably win some awards]. I know better than you will ever appreciate, exactly how hard it is to write a universally acclaimed book as this in one's field of expertise and the fact that it is self-published appears on the back of the first page. That makes Joe's dedication & contribution to Numismatics even greater! BTW, I know for a fact that corrections in any book are expected and appreciated by authors - even the placement of a comma.
Being a well-regarded, advanced collector of these coins, I've asked you before to either post something useful in this discussion or refute something I post. I started this discussion and feel it is no place for personal attacks. In the future I hope every member here including "the absolute titans of t[Capital T]rade dollar collecting" are not afraid or too whatever to add value to this thread. I'll be posting again next week and hope to have more on dentil or reed counts.
Here is another reed count:
1877-S large S 2/2 183 edge reeds
I've also blown-up images of Proof Trade dollars to count the dentils. So far, it looks like the early coins had 183 on the obverse and it dropped to 182 for the later dates. I believe the dentil count will be important to ID the hubs in the middle of the series and when the hubs switched. Will Mint State coins from Philadelphia have the same counts as Proofs? What about Branch Mint coins? Until this subject was mentioned above, I never considered it. I would have preferred to help complete the reed count listing found in Joes book, but I got sidetracked. We have easy and total access to the dentils in images. Reed counts will be harder since most Trade dollars owned by the absolute titans of Trade dollar collecting are in slabs.
1885 PR
1884 PR
1883 PR
1882 PR 182 obverse teeth
1879 PR 182
1878 PR 182
1877 PR .........have image waiting to count
1876 PR .........have image waiting to count
1875 PR 183
1874 PR
1873 PR 183
Reverse counts will come later. Hopefully others will add their research and confirm the counts. HINT, HINT.
Good thread.
Here is an image of my one and only trade dollar.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
Looks like an XF/AU that was net graded due to the black toning.
I myself thought it looked AU. I also think it has nice original crusty surfaces. That's just my opinion. This coin lights up when images are taken. It's darker in hand.
So @4Redisin your saying they didn't like the toning do they knocked it down to XF40 instead of giving it a details grade?
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
I almost picked that up for my type set, but you got to it first
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I counted 183 dentils on the obverse of my business strike 73-P and 183 dentils on the type I obverse of my business strike 76-P
@Aspie_Rocco so you saw it on ebay?
I think I picked it up for a good price.
I have heard that CAC does not sticker alot of trade dollars or they are tough on them to put it another way. I was told this by me LCS
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan MWallace logger7
Someone did not like the eye appeal. Black on coins is not good, especially on copper. IMO, your coin has purposely been under graded (net graded) for that reason. The fact that it has a green bean that I neglected to notice adds weight to my opinion. You yourself think it was under graded and I agree.