eBay Fakes (and What Can I Do About Them?)
Bikergeek
Posts: 554 ✭✭✭✭✭
I saw a bunch of bad eBay listings today - like you have posted here and here . Outside of "report this listing" on eBayI thought I'd try someone with a bigger hammer, so I went looking at Secret Service websites. It seemed an uphill battle:
(Source here).
(Source here).
No central federal clearinghouse for reports. So I hunted the Local Field Offices listing for my Kansas City area Secret Service office, and had a nice conversation with an empathetic lady there. Long story short, she'll have an agent call me, at which time I'll offer the info below. One of the accounts below these was also responsible for the half dimes and Lincoln cents linked above.
I don't have the illusion that this is easy to fix. But talking to the Secret Service seems to me more promising than talking to eBay. And as I explained to the lady today, this would be algorithmically simple for eBay to deter: a recent account with low feedback offering ten 1815 half dollars for $35 a piece? That's just not tenable. She opined that this would be a wonderful conversation for Secret Service to talk to Congress about, and for Congress to then talk to eBay. I like that idea.
The rogue's gallery:
Seller xiaming1 with 5 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/205547043023
Seller xiaming1 – 10 available. https://www.ebay.com/itm/205547054773
Seller hauiyr-088, 6 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/388406293987
Seller yinxiaolong, 10 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/396701577024
Seller yinxiaolong, 5 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/396701570070
Seller chenshulong, 3 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/205518395595
Seller zhangmingfu, 5 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/135934089658
Seller xiaming1, 5 available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/205547059817
A reminder: you can find your local Secret Service office here:
https://www.secretservice.gov/contact/field-offices
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
Comments
These have gotten absolutely out of control recently. Tons listed for bust halves, key date slqs and other coins. eBay needs to do something about this...
It's not just Ebay though. It's all of the online sites. This problem is bigger than Ebay.
What can u do? Not much. The government certainly could care less. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
Until our legal system cares, why would those making money care or even be concerned. I believe it may be a lost cause. It would be so easy for the auction houses to be held responsible, then it would soon over.
JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
you cant do nothing
Given that these sellers all appear to be Chinese nationals residing in China, I doubt there's anything the Secret Service can do. What these people are doing is not illegal in China. The only people committing crimes are the people buying them and importing them into the US, and I don't think "punishing the victims" is what the OP had in mind.
No, your only hope of stopping them is persuading eBay to stop allowing them. And given that eBay has fired all its actual experts and handed over counterfeit detection to its robots, and the robots are programmed to believe that "everyone is basically good" and therefore people do not normally tell lies, there is very little chance of anything happening at eBay's end.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
Sure, we can do nothing, it's what we've been doing.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Counterfeit collector coins are likely to be at the very bottom of the Secret Service list of priorities. Do they even handle the counterfeit issue anymore?
Why do you think you have to do anything??
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
This massive influx of mostly Chinese produced counterfeit coins is hurting the coin collecting hobby which results in fewer new coin collectors entering the hobby and existing coin collectors to leave the hobby which reduces the demand and value of your coins and my coins. This should be obvious.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
DHS customs does attempt to intercept parcels of counterfeit merchandise when they identify the shipper. IMHO. Peace Roy
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I used to have some success getting these taken down in the past, but lately it has been nearly impossible. I usually just get “ebay found nothing in the listing that violated policy”. So unless someone has a better idea on how to report these, I am done playing Don Quixote.
@PerryHall said: This massive influx of mostly Chinese produced counterfeit coins is hurting the coin collecting hobby which results in fewer new coin collectors entering the hobby and existing coin collectors to leave the hobby which reduces the demand and value of your coins and my coins. This should be obvious.
I'm a pretty smart guy and what you posted doesn't seem obvious to me. Do you have any reports, data or anecdotal evidence that Chinese counterfeits, or any counterfeits for that matter, are chasing people away from the Hobby?? A burgeoning counterfeit market has always been a part of Numismatics and things are no more or less popular today then in the past.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
So we should sit back and enjoy the assault on our hobby by the Chinese because there's no hard data that it's a Bad Thing? Every dollar spent on these fakes is a dollar that is not spent on the hobby. Those buying them are generally not in the same circle as those who know better than to buy them, so it's hard to come up with data showing them being chased from the hobby. Nevertheless, they are harmed financially, with the tacit approval of eBay, which prevents them from entering the legitimate hobby with the resources they'd have had otherwise. B&M dealers will probably be the best source for how these people view the hobby after being told they were sold a bunch of fakes.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I feel what will hurt the hobby most is when collectors decide to sell their collection or an heir decides to sell the collection, only to find out that many of the key coins(most valuable) are fake. Then it will soon get around not to buy collections without guarantee of origin, even when in holders. That will hurt the market, then the hobby. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Now, that's an interesting question. "Am I not my brother's keeper?"
My (infrequently updated) hobby website Groovycoins.com
Realistically, the best way to dissuade this would be Congressional action that allows the US Secret Service to charge Ebay or similar corporations with either aiding and abetting the sale of counterfeit currency or simply possession with intent to sell counterfeit currency. The penalties would have to be very steep as well (maybe $20,000 fine per instance).
This would assume that 1) Congress sees this as a big enough issue to warrant a new bill 2) Ebay does not have a significant amount of influence over Congress and 3) the USSS has the means and desire to pursue legal action against large corporations (and win).
Coin Photographer, ANA Heath Literary Award Winner.
Yes.... and no. Certainly not if my 'brother' does not want to be helped. And I've learned through the years I cannot save the world.
I see fakes in yard sales. I see fakes in antique shops. I see fakes in actual in person auctions. And certainly see fakes on line. I have found that in many cases if I mention the fake to the party... may not be well received, So, I've learned to mind my own business. I just try to keep my friends and family informed best I can in regards to purchasing anything numismatics.
So we should sit back and enjoy the assault on our hobby by the Chinese because there's no hard data that it's a Bad Thing
That's not what I posted, perhaps you should reread it. Let me play Devils Advocate and ask the obvious question: How has the Hobby survived to date with all the counterfeits through history and the ongoing AT/NT debate, not to mention all the other things which influence collectors. I simply don't believe people need to overreact to things that have happening for decades. Of course, you can, but it is almost pointless.
Again, go back and reread what I posted and what I was replying to.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
Even though the hobby has survived to date, I believe it’s in more danger now than in the past. There are likely far more (and increasingly deceptive) counterfeits than ever before. And many of those counterfeits are in counterfeit holders, causing buyers to let their guard down. I’m not saying the hobby is doomed but I’m concerned and welcome efforts to combat counterfeits.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Technology is a funny thing, it tends to work both sides of the street.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
One of the things technology has done is increase the possibility of one running into counterfeit items. Years ago you needed a face to face transaction to be exposed to fraudulent currencies. Now I get showered with offers to buy counterfeit from every electronic device I own. I keep thinking of some elderly grandparents who are trying to do right for their grandkids by buying alleged precious metals or rare coins for them. Older folks still sometime believe the government is watching out for them. It's caveat emptor but what's going on here is outright fraud.
Ironically, Collectors entered a partnership with eBay for the sale of PSA graded cards, yet isn’t inclined to leverage the partnership to help the coin community. Priorities!
https://www.ebayinc.com/stories/news/ebay-collectors-enter-into-commercial-agreement-sign-deals-for-acquisition-of-goldin-by-ebay-and-acquisition-of-the-ebay-vault-by-psa/
Founder- Peak Rarities
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And virtually impossible to stop.
That will end ALL coin sales on eBay
Then it would be highly effective at stopping the sale of counterfeits on Ebay.
Coin Photographer, ANA Heath Literary Award Winner.
Banning all sales of all coins in all venues would be even better.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
FWIW, PSA also handles the trading cards for eBay's 'authenticity guarantee' program. If I read it correctly, it covers eligible items worth $250 and up, and there is currently no fee for the service.
Link: https://www.ebay.com/authenticity-guarantee/tradingcards
Now you're thinking.
Coin Photographer, ANA Heath Literary Award Winner.
Letter writing campaign? To eBay or state representatives maybe.
One way or another, eBay is profiting from the sale of counterfeit items.
I started leaving eBay feedback when they ask or when if the option is offered. One spot is in the help and contact area of the site. There is also rate your experience, etc.
I used keywords like fraudulent, eBay, counterfeit, complicit, and AI.
I hope that if enough people complain about the AI reporting experience and the policy violation/ counterfeit offerings… that some human will eventually notice.
Reading this thread has been like an NPR debate or something. Brilliant points and counter points!
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Is that necessarily a bad thing?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
You could argue that ending all coin sales everywhere isn't a bad thing.
Ebay... Ebay... Ebay.
And what about Facebook, flea markets, Instagram, Etsy, etc? Everyone acts like this is an eBay problem. EBay just happens to be King.
eBay provides a marketplace. I want that marketplace to be open to me and as loosely regulated as possible. The same people who are mad that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT requires eBay and PayPal to issue 1099s want eBay to be punished for not being more burdensome.
People also way overestimate the value of coin sales on eBay profits much less counterfeit sales. Ebay is NOT trying to protect their tenth from counterfeits. Ebay simply does not want to spend 2% or revenue to police 1% of revenue.
There are only two solutions to counterfeits on eBay:
1. Stop ALL coin sales.
2. Require all coin sales physically go through eBay.
Either option will end coin sales on eBay. Some of you don't care. Fine. But for those of us who still like eBay, maybe just leave us alone.
There is no good way to prevent counterfeits otherwise. You can't hire experts because the scammers will simply use photos of real coins to sell fake ones.
So many lame excuses and straw men....they don't have to spend ANY additional revenue. Simply use AI and crowdsourcing knowledge to their advantage, users who have a history of reporting items that get taken down, should have a higher weighted "report" when the feature is used. Perhaps a handful of reports trigger a manual review, or something.
OR charge something marginal (.25c or something) for every listing regardless of sale, that gets deducted from FV fees if it does sell, and that will eliminate 90% of the dubious listings. If a tiny little fee (which doesn't affect items that actually sell) like this would substantially impact someone's margins, then their business model built on sand to begin with.
If you want a fully unregulated, hands off "libertarian" style marketplace, than fine...but advertise it as such and don't pretend that you're offering enough value to collect 13.5% of the total sale. Instagram and FB marketplace don't charge sellers or buyers, and flea markets cost the seller to be there. All of those are false equivalencies due to scale, however.
No ones excusing Etsy either, but their fees are less and they at least charge .20c per listing, and most of the replicas have "copy" or something similar in the title or they disclose that it's a replica in the description. There aren't high volume, legitimate coin dealers selling on Etsy either, but again the SCALE is why Ebay deserves the most attention. As stated, every collector burned and disenfranchised, EVERY dollar spent on fakes is a dollar not spent with an honest and deserving seller. It affects all of us, and much of it is easily preventable...remind me again why we should all lay down like a call girl on quaaludes?
So many lame excuses for a company with a mountain of resources and technology at their disposal, again, they literally have an army of volunteer "experts" at their disposal if they had a report feature that was worth a damn. Remember, this is the organization that delegated a team of team employees to implement an extensive harassment campaign against an elderly couple for writing a bad review about them....not sure why you insist ob being part of their PR team, pro bono nonetheless.
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They are neither lame excuses or straw men. They are simple facts. That is NOT to say that they couldn't do more. What they cannot do is stop all counterfeits. And if you make them liable for any that get through, it is the end of all coin sales for the reasons I have already mentioned.
The 2019 incident you refer to, by the way, is old news involving now ex-employees. No one is condoning that, but they have been punished. Could you please explain how that relates in any way to the topic at hand? No? I guess THAT'S a straw man.
You can NOT simply crowd source a solution for several reasons. First of all, I've already pointed out that it is easy to beat any such system by simply paying a picture of a real coin while selling a fake. But, beyond that, you will have numerous incorrect reports of fakes because you don't have just experts making the reports. And counterfeit reporting isn't a 2 way street. No one is reporting "genuine" to balance the "counterfeit" reports.
Your scale and cost arguments are specious. The Etsy listing fee (20 cents) borders on ludicrous as a method of stopping scamming for the reason YOU mention. If your scam isn't netting 20 cents, there's a problem with your business (scamming) model.
And why am I supposed to ignore the counterfeits everywhere else just because ebay is bigger?
It's nice that you think FB provides a free marketplace as an act of charity. FB makes money from ads and uses the free features to capture an audience. What you're arguing is equivalent to saying network TV doesn't make money from their prime time lineup because they don't charge you a fee for the show itself.
Either go after everyone or no one.
I have no problem with you jailing scam artists. But hold the scammers liable for their actions. When someone commits mail fraud, they go to jail. You don't jail the postman for facilitating the fraud. Maybe we should fine USPS for every counterfeit coin they deliver.
I want a marketplace. Ebay is not perfect but it is the best out there. You want to drag law enforcement in, i would love it. Let's also go after the sales tax and income tax cheats that help fill flea markets and coin shows. That affects my business as much as the counterfeits.
Trying to make eBay responsible for every transaction on their marketplace is more easy than it is fair. It also would be largely ineffective.
I’m not arguing for holding EBay accountable for each and every counterfeit, no where in my comment was law enforcement mentioned.
With that said, I think one big class action organized by the ANA and backed by all the other auction houses and dealers will do. One big fine for punitive damages to the hobby, just enough to sting and get them to take action.
Your argument against crowdsourcing is so obtuse, and you know that. Recently there was a brand new seller with one negative feedback, shipping from Hong Kong, with multiple counterfeits that were active for multiple days while being posted. There had to be at least 50 users here that reported the item, yet it gives us the reply that “it wasn’t found to be in violation”.
Occasionally an authentic item will get reported falsely, but you claim that because of that, the entire system is invalidated? Come on now, there’s a way to balance user reports with human oversight. A combination, some type of formula that takes multiple factors into account and suggests listings that need to be taken down in a timely manner to ONE employee. That’s all it would take if done correctly. We live in a time where rockets are landing gently in reverse and grabbed by a mechanical claw to be re used, you’re telling me we don’t have technology good enough to remove counterfeit coin listings from Hong Kong?
And the base charge for listings is not just about the scammers, it’s about all the junk listings on eBay. They’re able to do that because the revenue comes from actual sales, so when I sell one coin and eBay makes $400, that subsidizes moron Mikey (sorry to the Mike’s here) to list all of his pocket change for thousands of dollars and get the same visibility I do. Meanwhile, EBay tells us that in order to have “maximum” views, you should pay an extra 9% extortion charge, otherwise your listing gets buried under all the parking lot coins.
A dealer I know just had a return of a 4k coin, eBay provided the label to the buyer with no sig confirmation and the coin was delivered to the wrong P.O. Box. eBay claims it’s not the buyers responsibility because the coin was “delivered”, yet their system that forces signature confirmation upon sales over $1,000, doesn’t function the same for return labels.
I don’t know what other insurance the seller might have, but how do they justify 10% plus in fees for a service where we do all the work and take all the liability? Socialized costs. Privatized profit, just like all the other parasite industries like pharma or banking.
A marginal listing fee would deter the vast majority of the junk listings, and then perhaps they could offer a reasonable rate for coin sales. The sliding scale should start way below $4,000, but you have to be on there because so many buyers refuse to take any risk themselves, as they know eBay will never side with the seller if they do something dumb. Meanwhile every message asking for my “best price” somehow can’t figure out how to find my website where the prices are start at 5% less than they are on EBay.
The price structure should not be like other retail items like jewelry or clothing where markups are 100-300%, the amount of revenue from coins and currency is massive and you think it’s too much to ask for them to have 1 employee to put in a minimal amount of effort to screen out counterfeit coins that ultimately prevent growth of the hobby and reduce the number of collectors willing to trust an online source. Weird hill for you to die on, but par for the course I guess. Presumably your business model is one of the few that benefits from eBay and all the “perks” like “free” envelopes and such, but the rest of us can only shake our head when we see an auction concluded with some naive old man just spent $800 on a counterfeit CC Morgan, not to be discovered for another 20 years when his daughter gets the bad news at the local LCS.
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Didn’t PCGS have some partnership with ebay in the past that addressed the counterfeit issues and fake PCGS slabs? Or did that go by the wayside to focus on Chairzard cards?
I think we're talking at cross purposes. Yes, you can crowd source SOME fakes. My point is not that you can't police at all. Ebay does remove listings and bans users. But it's whack a mole. You cannot crowd source all problems and you can't eliminate all fakes.
Asked and answered, lol.
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Sorry, I skim read the thread and missed that, will go back to it later.
Let me clarify, I believe you asked and answered in your one comment. You asked two questions, I would answer “yes”. 😅
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Ah, ok. Need my afternoon coffee 😆😆
Maybe it has been mentioned already, but this seems like an issue an industry association should be tasked with first and foremost. Would it not be in ANA's sandbox to craft a communication to ebay on behalf of their membership?
I would think collaboration between various industry associations, clubs, dealers well known spokespeople, and the like would be a good path to take on this issue.
In my experience that is generally one of the main purposes of industry associations-
The diversity in the coins being counterfeited and hitting ebay now is mind blowing and scary!
Hiya! This thread is titled eBay Fakes.
It’s about fakes on eBay. Not instagram, Etsy, Facebook, or flea markets.
eBay is king, and reaps incredible profits from sellers like you and I both. They have policies they do not enforce anymore.
They collect fees from fraudulent sellers. They have now allowed counterfeits to be sold without the real ability to report. They are complicit in counterfeit sales, policy violations, and improper listings. They are now helping counterfeit sales by ignoring reports with the AI garbage.
For the thousands of dollars they collect from me yearly in fees I feel they have a legal and moral obligation to actually enforce their policies about counterfeits and listing rules.
I am a fan of eBay in general and I built most of my collection from eBay. I am an eBay seller and file taxes every year for my eBay sales.
I am disgusted with the lack of enforcement behavior they are now guilty of. I am not a blind patriot of eBay though. I do not argue on their behalf for years on end the way you have.
They streamlined the reporting system and basically made it useless with AI, all to save money and increase profits. It is obvious and shameless AVARICE on their part.
At this point I believe you will blindly defend eBay no matter what they do. You are clearly an intelligent person, which makes it even more confusing to me that you would constantly play the role of “white knight” for eBay in any eBay related discussion. I can only hope your reasons are not solely based on your own financial gain.
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I think my reasons are clear in ebay I wrote. I won't repeat them here other than to reiterate that I do not like the constant eBay bashing when it is not strictly an eBay problem. And I simply do not find any of the suggested solutions on this thread to be highly effective or as easy to implement as people keep suggesting.
For example, yes, they could create a circle of trust with Burfle and Feld. That would remove 0.05% of the problem coins up until the scammers realize they need to use pictures of real coins. Then you would have no way to identify any fakes.
And it is a gross exaggeration (completely incorrect?) that they do not enforce their policies. This forum is full of coins that were removed and we have no way to even know how many post-sale guarantees ebay facilitated. They are not 100% effective (and never will be) and they may be slower and/or less effective than you wish. But they do pull fakes all the time. They could pull 10 million fakes per day, by the way, and you wouldn't know because they pull them completely.
@jmlanzaf I always read your negative responses to to other's posts in awe...
eBay did have a group that had a direct reporting channel and it is no longer supported by the Bay; I was in it.
Your comment " until the scammers realize they need to use pictures of real coins. Then you would have no way to identify any fakes" shows a lack of understanding of the the current situation. These scammers (and yes, I bought one just to prove it to myself) are shown 99% of the time as shipping from China with 10 sold and 11 or so more available. I had these removed simply by reporting them as CN fake sellers...
Given that counterfeiting is 2500 years old, i think it is more realistic than negative to state that this is not an easy problem to solve.
I don't spend nearly as much time looking for fakes as you, but 99% from China (in my opinion) grossly overstates the statistics. Those coins are generally also directly available from Alibaba so you won't easily stem the tide on those counterfeits just by pretending they are an eBay problem.
I also appreciate you supporting my assertion that eBay does remove fakes. That flies in the face of the hyperbole I've been battling that eBay doesn't enforce its policies at all.
Thank you for your efforts.
"Pretending they are an eBay problem" is certainly not what I do! It is part of the problem landscape but one I have focused on in my current efforts because it has become so markedly worse lately.
Fair.