Fl gov signs HB 999 to make gold and silver legal tender and free of tax
Sanitarium_inmate2
Posts: 40 ✭✭
Do you think this will have any impact on the value of silver and gold coins? For example this new 2025 ASE for $91 from the mint, would it make the value go up or be a huge loss to those that paid the $91 each price being these are only $1 face value.
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Try and spend one and see what happens. It's Florida.
Gold and silver what? Gold and silver coins are already legal tender.
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DeSantis called the bill, HB 999, a "landmark piece of legislation." He said the legislation gives Floridians "more independence," adding that they won't be "wedded to a fiat currency."
"If you bought a home in 1979, the average cost was $75,000; those were the days," said Rep. Doug Bankson. "If you bought that same home, that same product, now it would be $531,000. However, if you had bought that in gold in 1979, it would've been 268 ounces. Today, if you bought that home, 268 ounces. Why? Because it's a tangible thing that has true value."
Furthermore, sales tax will not apply to gold and silver, and the new law will authorize money services businesses like PayPal to transmit and accept payments in gold and silver.
DeSantis said the metals will function as "real currency again" and not "just investment vehicles for the wealthy." He further stated that the law will give Florida residents the ability to protect themselves against "the declining dollar."
I do understand that silver and gold coins have always been legal currency. I'm just curious if this will impact the value of the silver or gold used in these coins in a good way or a bad way. Plus I'm curious if the idea of bringing back silver and gold certificates are in the works as well. The way it sounds is that you may be able to buy and sell items using electronic gold and silver currency through paypal and such businesses, similar to Bitcoin or other Crypto currencies. I couldn't see someone actually using a real coin at face value to buy something like a pack of gum or something.
Well FL already had industry friendly tax laws for coins and bullion, any sale over $500 was already exempt. This bill may be more of a posturing/pandering thing to the voter base, I’m not sure what real world implications it will have for practical purposes.
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I am a great believer in precious metals, but the volatility of Gold lately makes me wonder about the practicality of using it as "Legal Tender."
It is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that when South Africa first introduced the Krugerrand (1967?) it was Legal Tender at the Spot Price of Gold at the time of the transaction. Let's say you went into a department store to buy a suit of clothes or a washing machine or whatever. The salesperson would write up the invoice, and where it came time for payment you would hand him or her let's say three KRs and the salesperson would call a government number and get the spot price at the moment. Let say it was $37 an ounce. The sales person would write down $37 x 3 = $111 and enter $111 as the amount tendered, and give change or whatever.
THat works if both parties know what the system is, but not everybody knows money. I have had cashiers refuse $2 bills because they have never seen one before.
And what happens if the cashier today takes one in on a bedroom set at $3300 at 2 PM and by the time the cashier checks out at 6 PM Gold is down to $3200? Who eats the $100 loss?
Gold is not volatile, the currencies it is exchanged in are.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Not completely true. The price of everything else is not constant in gold ounces. When gold dropped $200 two weeks ago, my groceries didn't get cheaper and when the lettuce of gold was virtually flat for 20 years from 1980 to 2000, the price of everything else went up.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
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I find these states that are "declaring gold and silver" to be legal tender, somewhat deluded as to what they are constitutionally allowed to do.
Article 1 Section 10 gives states the right to declare "gold and silver coin" to be legal tender. That's all fine and good, but that fourth word is important: the gold must be in the form of "coins". "Gold" is a chemical element and not, in itself, a coin. What, then, is a "coin"? That seems an odd question to ask on a coin forum. I don't think the definition of "coin" has ever been nailed down or tested in court, but the common-sense definition is something like "a piece of metal or similar fabric, stamped with the authority of a government and has either a declared legal tender value by that government or a recognised value in commerce".
Thus, to become a coin, you need to get a government legally allowed to make coins to declare that coin to be legal tender; then the state can pass laws declaring those specific coins to be legal tender. The US government is one such government, but Florida declaring US coins to be legal tender is kind of redundant, as they're already legal tender in Florida as per US law. Canada, Mexico, Australia, Great Britain, South Africa... these are all also governments that can make "coins".
Florida is not a coin-issuing government, as Article 1 Section 8 grants the powers to "coin money" to the Federal government alone; Section 10 also specifically prevents States from "coining money". So, Florida can't strike it's own coins (not even gold coins), and can't declare already-existing private bullion rounds (or Goldback notes, or anything else made of gold except "coins") to be coins, since Section 10 only applies to things that are already "coins". So, Florida can pass a law declaring foreign coins like Krugerrands or Maple Leafs or Kookaburras to be legal tender. Florida also can't declare American SAEs or AGEs to be legal tender for any amount other than what the US government has already declared them to be, as Florida law cannot override Federal law in this regard (Section 8 once again), so a 1 ounce ASE can only ever have a legal tender value in Florida of $50, until and unless the Federal government says otherwise.
However, if Florida is going to go down the path of declaring foreign gold and silver coins to be legal tender, Florida does need to pass laws regulating exactly which coins this law applies to, and what that legal tender value in US dollars will be. What face value will a 1 ounce Krugerrand circulate at? The London daily spot price (which is what Krugerrands are fixed at in South Africa)? Or maybe the moment-by-moment spot price as marked by Kitco or some other recognized standard? Florida could pick any legal tender face value for these foreign coins that they want, but the law needs to say what that value is. A vaguely worded "gold is now legal tender" law is both unconstitutional and rather pointless.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded the DPOTD twice.
Agreed. These laws are largely symbolic.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
No effect.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, evn when irrefutably accurate.
In 1933 when FDR confiscated everyone's gold, he also banned the enforcement of all existing "gold clauses" in contracts. Many contracts at this time allowed the lender to require repayment of loans or other obligations in gold. This requirement was to protect the lender from inflation or the government devaluation of the dollar which is exactly what happened when FDR revalued gold from $20.67 to $35. Florida making gold "legal tender" is probably for contractual purposes rather than buying a burger at the local Mc Donalds or a pack of cigarettes at the local 7-11. As has been previously stated, it's largely symbolic.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
The part about no sales tax is certainly not just symbolic.
Florida already doesn't charge sales tax on coins and bullion.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'll take your word for it, but an earlier poster had said: "any sale over $500 was already exempt."
That is correct except that ALL US minted legal tender coins are exempt from any sales tax in FL. I guess I've never spent less than $500 on any bullion transaction in FL.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
So pretty much the opposite of what is happening in Maryland and Washington.
Fiscal responsibility has its rewards for voters.
Here in Texas, the government created the Texas Bullion Depository, an agency of the state of Texas, with low fees for storage, full insurance through Lloyds, and independent storage so that all materials are maintained separately and insures that the same coins or bullion are segmented. The only issue that we still have is that for some reason paper money is not tax free, as are coins and bullion.