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JCH22JCH22 Posts: 344 ✭✭✭✭
edited July 25, 2025 8:31AM in U.S. Coin Forum

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  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The active participants have a responsibility to both the consignor and the bidders. The only reasonable course of action is to keep to the facts, as they come out.

    When it comes to the pop reports, there’s a reason people say “finest known” instead of finest. Everyone should already understand that. Could a bag of BU 83-S Morgans come to light? It’s not impossible.

  • JCH22JCH22 Posts: 344 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 25, 2025 8:32AM

    .

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 35,828 ✭✭✭✭✭

    tl;dr

    seems the pop report is a problem

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • pcgsregistrycollectorpcgsregistrycollector Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've considered this type of thing myself in the past, and here's what I've come up with.

    In this case, there is a clear problem with numismatic ethics, mainly on the part of the dealer and owner, and possibly the auction house depending on what they know. While “buyer beware” has some place in coin collecting, ethical behavior means more than just avoiding lies—it means being open and fair. The dealer and owner know that many more of the same “rare” coins will be sold later, yet they allow the auction house to use population reports and claims of rarity that they know are misleading. By not telling buyers that the supply of these coins will grow, they create a false sense of rarity. This may help them make more money in the short term, but it damages trust in the coin market and takes advantage of less informed buyers.

    God comes first in everything I do. I’m dedicated to serving Him with my whole life. Coin collecting is just a hobby—but even in that, I seek to honor Him. ✝️

  • FlyingAlFlyingAl Posts: 3,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Depends on the ethical standard you use.

    I've seen dealers that are incredibly ethical, and other dealers that blatantly cross the line and don't care.

    I'd imagine what the OP posted is a dividing line between ethical dealers and unethical ones. I'd imagine it happens far more than we think.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2025 10:34PM

    What bothers me is the lack of disclosure years or decades AFTER a hoard has been disbursed.

    Witness the continued secrecy regarding details on the 1908 NM Wells Fargo Saint Hoard. While I don't expect names, I think we could know where the original bags came from. Ditto Fairmont.

    As far as when a sale is ongoing...I'm sure the dealers and auction house have run it by legal. If any buyer makes his or her purchase conditional on the seller/auction house NOT coming out with a future sale (near-term or ever) of a similarly graded coin, that would probably be something no seller would ever agree to (how could they).

    As the Fairmont Collection/Hoard became known, it was clear it was massive. Lots of people didn't bid because they feared being underwater a few months later with more coins coming out. That's fine. What isn't fine is telling the auction house you want a guarantee that there will be no more of a particular year's or mint's $5 Quarter or $10 Half Eagle. Even if they DIDN'T know there were more they had graded ready to bump up the population census, they're simply not going to make that promise.

    I believe that Elite Collection did rely on the promise that the existing 1933 Double Eagle would be the only legal 1933 to own. Since he (and Stuart Weitzeman before him) relied on an explicit promise as a condition of purchase, their situations are unique with a coin that has a population census of 1 coin.

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 2,422 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thin market equals significant risk. Unless it’s your business, participate for the enjoyment, eyes wide open.

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What ethical obligations does an auction house have if they also own the hoard?

  • oldabeintxoldabeintx Posts: 2,422 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @skier07 said:
    What ethical obligations does an auction house have if they also own the hoard?

    To disclose any known significant change in the population of rare or scarce coins. Not that I would expect it.

  • TypekatTypekat Posts: 534 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2025 10:21AM

    @JCH22 said

    Is there ever a point where the hobby would find a seller himself has an affirmative ethical obligation to disclose to the buyer (through his agents the auction house, dealer or through other means)? Say if I had stumbled upon a cache of 20 ungraded 1927-D, Double Eagles by way of just one example (and assume that I can accurately grade gem Double Eagles –last assumption is a stretch I concede)? Especially as it relates to the first few purchasers ?

    Great question!

    To practice impeccably transparent ethics, HERE’s WHAT NO ONE EVER WOULD DO:

    Immediately get all 20 coins graded and into the TPS population report, thus sending shockwaves through the coin market and immediately lowering the value of, not only the 20 coins you own, but also every other example of that date in collector and dealer hands.

    BUT There’s a better way to prevent SO MANY PEOPLE from suffering genuine financial losses:

    Just get the best coin graded, and then sell it.
    And then repeat that sporadically over the course of your expected lifetime.

    30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!

  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2025 10:16AM

    My first gold coin was an 1881/0 5$ liberty in EF that the Coin world add proclaimed 2 Known for 550$ about 4-5X the non-varitey in the early 90s. I opened up the most current Redbook and it had the mythical line though where the prices should be listed and 2 Known in the mintage line. That was all the conformation young me needed. Everyone else knew that multiples had been located once people started looking for them.

    The trick to buying is know more than the sellers, the trick to selling is know more than the buyers. Ethics comes into play but most transactions use the leverage regardless

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 22, 2025 7:10AM

    Seems too complex of an issue to try mine ethics out of it but see below. Do you have a large number of big ticket raw coins? Get them graded.

    Additionally it wb prohibitively expensive for the seller as he would probably be charged time and materials for the person preparing the items for grading shipment. Probably a time and materials fee of $50 per hour.

    Population reports are a point in time. Some may be way over bloated (crackouts) anyway so imo throw that out. Like expansion of the universe coin pops increase anyway. It’s simply a non controllable. However current low single digit pops can be used as part of the marketing strategy. Now if the client wants to get the coins graded before selling that is his respondibility.

    The key question to me - Did the consignor get payment for everything submitted for sale (less any fees, sell expenses)? So that part of the project is complete. Is there any material unsold? Is there an inventory list of it? What is the game plan remaining going forward? The play call going forward will the dealer offer an amount to acquire it all lump sum offer? Or another run at the auction house route?

    From a ethics point of view the client should be advised what remains unsold and then compensated as those items sell.

    If raw coins nobody can really know. Like a Martian lander hopefully it wb a smooth landing after the long voyage. What coins are going to grade (or body bagged) or how many is a an unknown. Many estates I have seen were nothing but crap pieces.
    The good stuff blown out long ago.

    I don’t consign material I don’t own. I have procured collections where the seller took my offer.

    As long as the collector got his money from the liquidation from that process see no ethical issue. If individuals lost money from higher pops decreasing CDN bid (speculation) too bad so sad for them. One needs to churn their inventory / move it - just basic RCI strategy. Everybody knows pops are not a static number.

    Investor
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    It’s too complex of an issue to try mine ethics out of it but see below.

    Population reports are a point in time. Some may be way over bloated (crackouts) anyway so imo throw that out. Like expansion of the universe coin pops increase anyway. It’s simply a non controllable. However current low single digit pops can be used as part of the marketing strategy. Now if the client wants to get the coins graded before selling that is his respondibility.

    The key question to me - Did the consignor get payment for everything submitted for sale (less any fees, sell expenses)? So that part of the project is complete. Is there any material unsold? Is there an inventory list of it? What is the game plan remaining going forward? The play call going forward will the dealer offer an amount to acquire it all lump sum offer? Or another run at the auction house route?

    From a ethics point of view the client should be advised what remains unsold and then compensated as those items sell.

    If raw coins nobody can really know. Like a Martian lander hopefully it wb a smooth landing after the long voyage. What coins are going to grade (or body bagged) or how many is a an unknown. Many estates I have seen were nothing but crap pieces.
    The good stuff blown out long ago.

    I don’t consign material I don’t own. I have procured collections where the seller took my offer.

    Based on your reply it looks like you somehow missed the question posed by the thread originator. It was: “In the above hypothetical, has the owner, dealer, or auction house committed any breach of numismatic ethics in your view? If so, who/why? Or does caveat emptor control?“

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 21, 2025 5:48PM

    You did not read the first sentence did you? Do you count off for spelling too lol.

    Investor
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,856 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cougar1978 said:
    So what lol? You did not read the first sentence did you?

    I did and unfortunately, I read the rest of the off topic ramblings.🫤

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

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