Just my thoughts: Current TVs are just snapped and done with no processing. I'm guessing the previous photographer had a few commonly used tweaks in Photoshop saved as one click filters. Minor processing does a lot.
@renomedphys said:
Just sent this in for reholder and variety attribution. It was reimaged. Here’s the before:
And here’s the after:
Thoughts?
If you look through a coin series in coinfacts every now and then you see a coin that's photographed in that "reflective background" style. I don't really know how to describe it but sometimes I wonder if they choose it intentionally because it does offer a special contrast or highlight for the devices but it does hide flaws in the field. Auction houses will do this too but they almost always include a "normal" photo to go with it.
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I constantly see these reels on instagram of product photography showing the .RAW file vs the edited photo. Its a cliche in photography that clients will ask for the .RAW and that you should never give it out because they'll badly edit your work and misrepresent your skills to others.
I think coin photography should be the exception to this rule. It would be such a good thing for the hobby if a TPG would publish a set of standards for what lighting and where to place it. Will that lighting look best for every coin? Of course not. Is it incredibly simple to have multiple lights and capture multiple photos in a burst and provide them all? Yes, yes it is. Cropping and adjusting exposure in post should be automated, especially if they include an 18% grey reference or color card in the shot.
I absolutely disagree. I despise it when people edit my work, as they often do a horrible job at it.
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I constantly see these reels on instagram of product photography showing the .RAW file vs the edited photo. Its a cliche in photography that clients will ask for the .RAW and that you should never give it out because they'll badly edit your work and misrepresent your skills to others.
I think coin photography should be the exception to this rule. It would be such a good thing for the hobby if a TPG would publish a set of standards for what lighting and where to place it. Will that lighting look best for every coin? Of course not. Is it incredibly simple to have multiple lights and capture multiple photos in a burst and provide them all? Yes, yes it is. Cropping and adjusting exposure in post should be automated, especially if they include an 18% grey reference or color card in the shot.
I absolutely disagree. I despise it when people edit my work, as they often do a horrible job at it.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way, the point in sharing the RAW on for sale listings would be for the sake of proving the image isn't edited (in a way that misrepresents the coin). What we really need though for that to make sense is cryptographically signed images of some sort.
For example, I can't stand how most cropped coin pictures obfuscate the reeding.
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@FriendlyEagle7 said:
I constantly see these reels on instagram of product photography showing the .RAW file vs the edited photo. Its a cliche in photography that clients will ask for the .RAW and that you should never give it out because they'll badly edit your work and misrepresent your skills to others.
I think coin photography should be the exception to this rule. It would be such a good thing for the hobby if a TPG would publish a set of standards for what lighting and where to place it. Will that lighting look best for every coin? Of course not. Is it incredibly simple to have multiple lights and capture multiple photos in a burst and provide them all? Yes, yes it is. Cropping and adjusting exposure in post should be automated, especially if they include an 18% grey reference or color card in the shot.
I absolutely disagree. I despise it when people edit my work, as they often do a horrible job at it.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way, the point in sharing the RAW on for sale listings would be for the sake of proving the image isn't edited (in a way that misrepresents the coin). What we really need though for that to make sense is cryptographically signed images of some sort.
For example, I can't stand how most cropped coin pictures obfuscate the reeding.
I just don't see how that's reasonable, given most people don't shoot in RAW. Plus they're huge files.
You can also get the same results in editing just by changing camera settings the right way.
@jesbroken said:
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
Will they honor that? At a certain level you're required to use GoldShield, and the TV is mandatory as it's considered a component of security. I don't disagree with your intent, but it's sad it's come to this tbh.
Maybe Phil Arnold will open a training seminar at the national coin shows. Imagine if he trained a few dozen people a year at these events. I'm sure we would benefit from it eventually. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@jesbroken said:
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
How do you get free TV's? TVs are never free as I understand it.
@jesbroken said:
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
How do you get free TV's? TVs are never free as I understand it.
gold shield service level includes tv for "free", but we all know there's no free lunch
@lablover said:
Yes, I know there have been many threads on TrueView Service. Once again, we have proof the service has not improved. I like PCGS, I really do. But enough, is enough guys.
Not a fan of True-view photos either. The very last thing that the photos can be called is "true-view". They remind me of the 1980s glamour shots that the weird aging neighbor lady would take to look younger.
If the coin doesn't look like it would look in hand, then it is of no use to determine eye appeal.
@jesbroken said:
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
How do you get free TV's? TVs are never free as I understand it.
gold shield service level includes tv for "free", but we all know there's no free lunch
I don't know how you can say they are included for "free." Imaging is part of the gold shield service that we pay for. I guess you can say you get the french fries and drink are free when you buy a Big Mac value meal, but that's not an honest way to look at it. The fries are part of the package you pay for, just like imaging is part of gold shield and is not free by any means. Imaging is an integral part of GS. https://www.pcgs.com/goldshield
With PCGS Gold Shield, each coin is imaged in high resolution, registered, and checked against PCGS’ vast proprietary imaging database.
@ARCO said:
If the coin doesn't look like it would look in hand, then it is of no use to determine eye appeal.
If the coin doesn't look like it does in hand, then it's of no use as a security feature either.
@FlyingAl said:
I just don't see how that's reasonable, given most people don't shoot in RAW. Plus they're huge files.
>
You can also get the same results in editing just by changing camera settings the right way.
30MB is nothing in 2025. Obviously you wouldn't load the file on the for sale page, there would be a link for the more discerning buyer.
RAW files are the data from the sensor. Camera settings are just stored as metadata. Am I misunderstanding?
Let's say you love a certain color toning, and you see a coin for sale and want to compare it to one you have on hand. If you knew what camera, lens, and lights (both the type of light and position relative to the camera/coin) the photographer used, and had their RAW file (or at least the jpg with original metadata), you could recreate the shot and accurately compare the color.
Even if the photographer has every intention of visual honesty, are they really taking the time to get the coin out and look at in in hand when making final adjustments before exporting a jpg? If so are they using the same light at their desk as their photography? Then there's the question of monitor calibration too.
Try using RGB LEDs to shoot some toners. Set white balance with a reference card. Compare to incandescent lights. You don't even need toners you'll see the difference with pocket change. Now get one of these $10 spectroscopes and look at all the light bulbs in your house and see how different the various types of "white" "full spectrum" LEDs are compared to incandescent and fluorescent.
I'm just saying it would be nice to have a reproducible standard. At least that is what I'd want if I was buying coins worth as much as a car or house. That and video to see the luster and relief and reeding and know the lighting wasn't cherry picked to hide anything.
@HillbillyCollector said:
I was talking to a friend on here a while back. We jokingly thought about sending them through GC to get a Great Photo, and then bidding them back!🤣
If one could only get around the BP!😉
I am glad that I was not the only one thinking of that!
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
Since I started this thread (and have enjoyed reading the various contributions) thought I'd share some results from having the coins I highlighted imaged from another source. Bob Cambell (@robec) was kind enough to provide the images I can actually use.
Mind you, Bob was shooting through the plastic.
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
The trueviews are still bad - my last batch was badly underexposed - they look like those pre-trueview “UFO photos” they took when Gold Shield started.
A lot of these bad photos are starting to show up in Condition Census photos on Coinfacts, so its not just the cheap coins that are bad. I would think the “heavy hitter” dealers would be up in arms about this. This is super disappointing more than a year after my rant about the bad white balance Trueviews.
@jesbroken said:
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
As far as I know, you can’t opt out of Trueview on Gold Shield. My workaround is to include some higher value coins ($500 to $1,500) in economy submissions and just pay the $10 surcharge if the graded coin exceeds the economy limit.
You are right, I forgot to repost. I called pcgs and no you cannot refuse tv's with your membership submission voucher. It's a shame as not only the tv's are less than they used to be plus the extra time you would save without going thru the process.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
For coins with lower values (especially toned coins), I submitted to PCGS even with huge lag times because of the prospect of obtaining True View images. I think I will now switch to CACG. The horrible photos are damaging to the coin’s value when selling online IMHO because people will discount the images you hire another photographer to take and rely on crappy True Views instead. Some may even assume the post certification photos are juiced.
I don't know what to call that style in the TV, but it seems that every now and then the photographers decide to go with the super bright fields or "inverse proof" look as I like to call it. Heritage does this too sometimes but they provide both versions. They might do it because they think it looks better but I have never liked that style.
I crossed a 1876 FS-301, Large/small date half a couple weeks ago and got the TV. It's so bad I was speechless when I saw it. Phil at GC absolutely nailed it. It's a wonderfully original coin that looks totally horrible in the TV. I wish I could have it deleted!
@Manorcourtman said:
I crossed a 1876 FS-301, Large/small date half a couple weeks ago and got the TV. It's so bad I was speechless when I saw it. Phil at GC absolutely nailed it. It's a wonderfully original coin that looks totally horrible in the TV. I wish I could have it deleted!
PCGS does a horrible job shooting darkly toned coins. They turn dark coins into light coins with intense axial lighting.
@Manorcourtman said:
I crossed a 1876 FS-301, Large/small date half a couple weeks ago and got the TV. It's so bad I was speechless when I saw it. Phil at GC absolutely nailed it. It's a wonderfully original coin that looks totally horrible in the TV. I wish I could have it deleted!
PCGS does a horrible job shooting darkly toned coins. They turn dark coins into light coins with intense axial lighting.
The same lighting shows every little flaw on modern coins completely dissolving any eye appeal that may have been critical to the grade.
Leads me to believe they’re phasing out coins and if not they just don’t know that it’s coming.
Then I would say to CAC if you want to create a bustling interactive forum (feeds business) like this place once was then you have to add reaction options. Otherwise it will continue to be a sleepy little town.
If I cannot react to a post then what's the use of posting. Makes it more interesting just ask FB. While your at it bring on the disagree button. Let's go!
@Manorcourtman said:
I crossed a 1876 FS-301, Large/small date half a couple weeks ago and got the TV. It's so bad I was speechless when I saw it. Phil at GC absolutely nailed it. It's a wonderfully original coin that looks totally horrible in the TV. I wish I could have it deleted!
PCGS does a horrible job shooting darkly toned coins. They turn dark coins into light coins with intense axial lighting.
The same lighting shows every little flaw on modern coins completely dissolving any eye appeal that may have been critical to the grade.
Leads me to believe they’re phasing out coins and if not they just don’t know that it’s coming.
I've thought that for several years now. Clearly, they don't care about the quality of their photography anymore and that's what made them special, IMO.
@jesbroken said:
You are right, I forgot to repost. I called pcgs and no you cannot refuse tv's with your membership submission voucher. It's a shame as not only the tv's are less than they used to be plus the extra time you would save without going thru the process.
Jim
That is disappointing.
You shouldn't have to have poor quality images follow your coins around.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
@Coinscratch said:
Then I would say to CAC if you want to create a bustling interactive forum (feeds business) like this place once was then you have to add reaction options. Otherwise it will continue to be a sleepy little town.
If I cannot react to a post then what's the use of posting. Makes it more interesting just ask FB. While your at it bring on the disagree button. Let's go!
@Coinscratch said:
Then I would say to CAC if you want to create a bustling interactive forum (feeds business) like this place once was then you have to add reaction options. Otherwise it will continue to be a sleepy little town.
If I cannot react to a post then what's the use of posting. Makes it more interesting just ask FB. While your at it bring on the disagree button. Let's go!
I believe they did just that, today or within the last 24 hrs.
No kidding! Well then I’ll go check it out this week not now though couch is calling my name at the moment.
Cya over there 😁 my handle is Fingergems, that doesn’t sound right does it 😆
Comments
Just my thoughts: Current TVs are just snapped and done with no processing. I'm guessing the previous photographer had a few commonly used tweaks in Photoshop saved as one click filters. Minor processing does a lot.
If you look through a coin series in coinfacts every now and then you see a coin that's photographed in that "reflective background" style. I don't really know how to describe it but sometimes I wonder if they choose it intentionally because it does offer a special contrast or highlight for the devices but it does hide flaws in the field. Auction houses will do this too but they almost always include a "normal" photo to go with it.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I absolutely disagree. I despise it when people edit my work, as they often do a horrible job at it.
Coin Photographer.
Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way, the point in sharing the RAW on for sale listings would be for the sake of proving the image isn't edited (in a way that misrepresents the coin). What we really need though for that to make sense is cryptographically signed images of some sort.
For example, I can't stand how most cropped coin pictures obfuscate the reeding.
Coin Photographer and Videographer
https://www.youtube.com/@FriendlyEagle7
I've decided to request no tv's even when free with the grading. Hey, it might mean a quicker turn around.
I hope they add a box to their online form that says ABSOLUTELY NO TRUEVIEWS REGARDLESS OF GRADING LEVEL LOL
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I just don't see how that's reasonable, given most people don't shoot in RAW. Plus they're huge files.
You can also get the same results in editing just by changing camera settings the right way.
Coin Photographer.
Will they honor that? At a certain level you're required to use GoldShield, and the TV is mandatory as it's considered a component of security. I don't disagree with your intent, but it's sad it's come to this tbh.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Maybe Phil Arnold will open a training seminar at the national coin shows. Imagine if he trained a few dozen people a year at these events. I'm sure we would benefit from it eventually. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Going forward, I will enjoy smaller invoices and selling with my own images.
How do you get free TV's? TVs are never free as I understand it.
http://ProofCollection.Net
gold shield service level includes tv for "free", but we all know there's no free lunch
Talking about members' "free" 4/8 yearly vouchers which are gold shield with again "free" tv's.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Not a fan of True-view photos either. The very last thing that the photos can be called is "true-view". They remind me of the 1980s glamour shots that the weird aging neighbor lady would take to look younger.
If the coin doesn't look like it would look in hand, then it is of no use to determine eye appeal.
I don't know how you can say they are included for "free." Imaging is part of the gold shield service that we pay for. I guess you can say you get the french fries and drink are free when you buy a Big Mac value meal, but that's not an honest way to look at it. The fries are part of the package you pay for, just like imaging is part of gold shield and is not free by any means. Imaging is an integral part of GS.
https://www.pcgs.com/goldshield
http://ProofCollection.Net
If the coin doesn't look like it does in hand, then it's of no use as a security feature either.
>
30MB is nothing in 2025. Obviously you wouldn't load the file on the for sale page, there would be a link for the more discerning buyer.
RAW files are the data from the sensor. Camera settings are just stored as metadata. Am I misunderstanding?
Let's say you love a certain color toning, and you see a coin for sale and want to compare it to one you have on hand. If you knew what camera, lens, and lights (both the type of light and position relative to the camera/coin) the photographer used, and had their RAW file (or at least the jpg with original metadata), you could recreate the shot and accurately compare the color.
Even if the photographer has every intention of visual honesty, are they really taking the time to get the coin out and look at in in hand when making final adjustments before exporting a jpg? If so are they using the same light at their desk as their photography? Then there's the question of monitor calibration too.
Try using RGB LEDs to shoot some toners. Set white balance with a reference card. Compare to incandescent lights. You don't even need toners you'll see the difference with pocket change. Now get one of these $10 spectroscopes and look at all the light bulbs in your house and see how different the various types of "white" "full spectrum" LEDs are compared to incandescent and fluorescent.
I'm just saying it would be nice to have a reproducible standard. At least that is what I'd want if I was buying coins worth as much as a car or house. That and video to see the luster and relief and reeding and know the lighting wasn't cherry picked to hide anything.
Coin Photographer and Videographer
https://www.youtube.com/@FriendlyEagle7
https://a.co/d/47ZRDMf
Coin Photographer and Videographer
https://www.youtube.com/@FriendlyEagle7
Some new TVs from today's results. The Proof half looks great. The MS coins, not so much.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Yea that's pretty pathetic. I just sent in 42 coins modern, no more gold shield for me.
I cannot believe that have not addressed this yet. These photos are still really bad
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@ProofCollection I see they are tighter than ever but congrats on the 70DCAM.
I am glad that I was not the only one thinking of that!
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Since I started this thread (and have enjoyed reading the various contributions) thought I'd share some results from having the coins I highlighted imaged from another source. Bob Cambell (@robec) was kind enough to provide the images I can actually use.
Mind you, Bob was shooting through the plastic.
Wow! I need the secret technique to photograph toning colors like that!
Here are a few more reasons why I will be using my own images going forward.
MS67 new
MS67 old
MS67 new
MS62 old
The trueviews are still bad - my last batch was badly underexposed - they look like those pre-trueview “UFO photos” they took when Gold Shield started.
A lot of these bad photos are starting to show up in Condition Census photos on Coinfacts, so its not just the cheap coins that are bad. I would think the “heavy hitter” dealers would be up in arms about this. This is super disappointing more than a year after my rant about the bad white balance Trueviews.
As far as I know, you can’t opt out of Trueview on Gold Shield. My workaround is to include some higher value coins ($500 to $1,500) in economy submissions and just pay the $10 surcharge if the graded coin exceeds the economy limit.
You are right, I forgot to repost. I called pcgs and no you cannot refuse tv's with your membership submission voucher. It's a shame as not only the tv's are less than they used to be plus the extra time you would save without going thru the process.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@lablover Are you not photographing coins anymore?
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
There are better options now.
Hey buddy,
No, I stopped and sold my copy stand, lights, etc. some time ago when I quit collecting. Hope you are well...
I am well Jim I hope all is well with you also.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
For coins with lower values (especially toned coins), I submitted to PCGS even with huge lag times because of the prospect of obtaining True View images. I think I will now switch to CACG. The horrible photos are damaging to the coin’s value when selling online IMHO because people will discount the images you hire another photographer to take and rely on crappy True Views instead. Some may even assume the post certification photos are juiced.
Wow that’s a huge difference.
I don't know what to call that style in the TV, but it seems that every now and then the photographers decide to go with the super bright fields or "inverse proof" look as I like to call it. Heritage does this too sometimes but they provide both versions. They might do it because they think it looks better but I have never liked that style.
http://ProofCollection.Net
I crossed a 1876 FS-301, Large/small date half a couple weeks ago and got the TV. It's so bad I was speechless when I saw it. Phil at GC absolutely nailed it. It's a wonderfully original coin that looks totally horrible in the TV. I wish I could have it deleted!
PCGS does a horrible job shooting darkly toned coins. They turn dark coins into light coins with intense axial lighting.
The same lighting shows every little flaw on modern coins completely dissolving any eye appeal that may have been critical to the grade.
Leads me to believe they’re phasing out coins and if not they just don’t know that it’s coming.
If I were to guess I would say 99% of coins are sold based on an image.
Prove me wrong!
Then go to the shared order page and try to find an order that isn’t Chinese.
Good luck!
I would argue that more than 1% of coins are sold at coins shows and shops in person without photos.
http://ProofCollection.Net
Then I would say to CAC if you want to create a bustling interactive forum (feeds business) like this place once was then you have to add reaction options. Otherwise it will continue to be a sleepy little town.
If I cannot react to a post then what's the use of posting. Makes it more interesting just ask FB. While your at it bring on the disagree button. Let's go!
@ProofCollection show me the proof
I've thought that for several years now. Clearly, they don't care about the quality of their photography anymore and that's what made them special, IMO.
That is disappointing.
You shouldn't have to have poor quality images follow your coins around.
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I believe they did just that, today or within the last 24 hrs.
No kidding! Well then I’ll go check it out this week not now though couch is calling my name at the moment.
Cya over there 😁 my handle is Fingergems, that doesn’t sound right does it 😆