An actual 1964 Cent SMS up for auction
Steven59
Posts: 10,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
Amazing to see one for sale!
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1792723/
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
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and it is a no mint mark error
Wow!
That must be why it's worth so much!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Neat coin !
Get ready for all the sports fans to find one in their 'penny' jars.
Wowsers! Not even if I had that kind of money in my slush fund.
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I thought that @FlyingAl had determined these were of dubious authenticity??
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," --- Benjamin Franklin
I saw this as one of the featured coins in my weekly GC email.
The quality and perfection of the strike is astonishing.
Now there will be another round of these coming out of the woodwork and being featured for sale.
peacockcoins
Is that die polish?
PCGS Price Guide - $75,000
Edited to add: Price Guide said $27,500 in November of 2024.
That's quite the bump!
Did any actually sell between last November and this listing? I would think they 50k jump is pure conjecture
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Nice early strike from fresh dies, really nice made for circulation coin.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Way too much money and pride on the line for anyone to admit the truth of these coins.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1964-1c-sms-rd/3284/1480139197618136064
67rd - 19.2k
@DCW { Price Guide said $27,500 in November of 2024.}
The PCGS price guide stated $20,500 on the coin sold in Jan 2025 that @MsMorrisine posted?
Does the PCGS price guide move that much on rare to find coins?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
On the reverse yes - but I thought the obverse would show better details - kind of "soft". But what do I know....
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
the 68rd is 2/0
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I feel like you should reread that article.
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I'm not sure if it's Polish. Could be Russian or Hungarian.
Looks like a regular 1964 Lincoln to me.
Right - without the label nobody would know! Like the "West Point" ASEs that don't have the W mintmark
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
can I infer all known sms coins are holdered?
What does "infer" mean?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
in·fer
/inˈfər/
verb
verb: infer; 3rd person present: infers; past tense: inferred; past participle: inferred; gerund or present participle: inferring
The obv master was so worn out by the late fifties that all the fine details were nonexistent, even on early strikes like this coin, the rev was a new master in 59 so it was much sharper. That did not change until the obv master was reworked in the late 60's.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I feel like you should reread that article. > @JCH22 said:
It's not consequential because the article discusses the reasons in mint documents the coins were struck, and how that heritage traces back to at least 1958, and more than likely much much earlier.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
I think that he determined their Eva Adam's connection to be dubious. With or without that, their existence always had questions about it. But they are still accepted... similar to 1913 Liberty nickels
I don’t recall his having determined that, And even if he did, based on what I’ve heard (and later posted here) I believe otherwise.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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You may be right but, as i recall, the first appearance of them at Stacks predates the Adams' estate.
It what Steve Blum told me was correct - and I have no reason to doubt it - Adams gave a number of the sets to N.Y.dealer Lester Merkin. And after he passed away, his widow consigned them to Stack’s. So at least some of the sets wouldn’t have been in her estate.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I would rather have a nice Wreath Cent for that kind of money.
Sold for $36000! ($39, 600 with fees)
WS
That’s $2100 over (half of) the PCGS price guide value.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Better start a thread about the entire coin market tanking
Does PCGS guarantee that the is SMS Cent as on holder and if later proven otherwise have to pay out the value for what it was graded for?
No. PCGS guarantees the grade is correct, not necessarily the designation. Changes in a coin's status is not covered by the PCGS guarantee, so if it is determined the 1964 SMS coins are not SMS, owners would be screwed.
they'd be different coin numbers. it is pcgs' decision to approve the creation of the designation and their decision to assign a coin under that designation. the guarantee may only be for grades and authenticity. i would hold the "professional coin grad(ers)" responsible for their mistake
Whether there is such a thing as an SMS coin or not, the ones that have been labeled as such for so long now have their own history. Even if it’s proved that there has never been such a thing, this one has been traded as one for a long time and that’s a story in itself.
Not that it makes it worth $30k, but it does make it some level of special (as long as it can keep the provenance).
Just a thought
OK so I can accept that these sets were direct from Adams/Merkin with corroborating testimony/evidence.
So why not put the Adams/Merkin provenance on the label to definitively confirm origin?
Wpuld that not help quell future doubt?
If Lester Merkin’s estate was, indeed, the consignor of some of the sets to Stack’s sales, Stack’s chose not to disclose that when they auctioned the coins. And there’s no solid proof that Lester Merkin obtained sets from Adam’s. Thus, there’s no way to satisfactorily confirm the provenance.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@golden said:
Yes, totally agree, or a nice mid-grade chain cent, or an early gold piece… but then, I have little to no interest in coins of the modern era.
That said, if 1964 Lincolns are in your wheelhouse, have at it.
I would think, hope and expect that PCGS would honor their guarantee with respect to their “SMS” designations for such coins. A buyer should be able to reasonably rely upon that.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lots of ifs, buts and maybes. Does not instill confidence in the origins of this and the other coins. Well the coin was sold so we can surely talk about it now..
I would hope so too Mark, but if they handle the situation like they do with varieties that are delisted, there will be no payout.
Alex, I believe that a designation such as “SP” would be handled differently from a variety, but I can certainly understand your point of view. And admittedly, I was surprised and disappointed by what occurred with some delisted varieties.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Why on earth would PCGS be expected to compensate a buyer for something that changes in public opinion? They grade coins and designate varieties from reference books. In other words, if the consensus changes on whether these things are indeed experimental strikes, should the TPG that holders them be penalized while the buyer that had the same knowledge carries zero risk?
Of course not. Same thing goes with designated varieties. If a Cherrypicker number gets delisted, PCGS doesn't pay out. They did their job, which was to identify the coin with the information known at the time. Nothing more.
Now, if they designated a variety incorrectly, for instance, I agree that they would be on the hook. A normal 1964 cent slabbed as the SMS variety without the known die markers incurs liability. Surely we can all agree on that.
I think for that reason, these things are not encapsulated without known provenance from their first origins, ie. The Stacks auctions of the 90s
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."