Does PCGS ever "clean" or "conserve" a coin submitted for grading unasked?
Bolo
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Just got back my most recent submission and I noticed the trueview for a Barber quarter has some pretty clear differences to what the coin looks like in hand - here is the trueview:
And here is a quick picture of the reverse of the coin in the slab:
You can see the trueview image has some sort of debris on the reverse at the base of the shield. In hand...not so much. Do they ever "conserve" coins without being asked or is there something wrong with the trueview image?
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Interesting. What did it look like when you sent it in?
PCGS would never conserve a coin without permission - I can't imagine - it would be too much legal liability and simply not worth it, especially if they can't charge you for it. I think in some circumstances they may call you and ask, but they won't conserve without permission - too risky. They want you to sign that waiver on the restoration form at a minimum.
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They have done it at least once before by mistake in the past but I don't think that's the case here.
They take the pictures after conservation. Much more likely that something was on the camera lens or on the slab, etc and it just didn't get imaged properly. I would call customer service and have them reimage it at no charge.
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What he said, I forgot to say it could have been a mistake and they will reimage it for you at no charge.
One thing I was told recently and I do believe this - they actually image coins before restoration and after. If you send a coin in for restoration, check the cert number a while after it goes into grading status and you can often see the pre-resto photo. It disappears after the new cert is issued though.
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Several years ago I sent in an old half dollar that had some adhered dirt on the coin and when I received it back the adhered dirt was gone. This wasn't a light flake that might have fallen off, but instead some ancient dirt in the devices. I wasn't happy and contacted PCGS. They asked me what I valued the coin at and offered to buy it back from me. They also told me that someone likely took a can of air and sprayed the dirt to see if they could force it off, which they managed to do.
I don't believe I kept the email correspondence for this, so if anyone chooses not to believe it happened then they are welcomed to do so.
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To the left side of the Mont., about at the 9:10 o'clock mark (not a pun), on the rim is a chunk of black debris......why??......no-one had the goodwill, the decency to take a toothpick to remove that huge thick mass of junk. I usually use magnified glasses so my hands are free. So yes, somewhat complicated but could have been done. Imagine all the people who saw to the handling of this coin before encapsulated and did nothing. From the submitter to the inspector......why not?
Reading the post above mine, different strokes for........
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I think this is just the lighting. Your trueview photo used axial lighting. Sometimes there will be a spot on the coin that you can't really see under normal lighting conditions that looks dark with axial lighting. I love axial lighting coin photography but think PCGS should include both axial and off-axis lighting photos, since you can't replicate an axial lighting photo once the coin is slabbed, it makes the coin photo less useful as an anti-fraud tool.
Question....Once a coin is restored/conserved by PCGS, does it receive a "straight" grade or is it now a "details" coin?
I would rather join with an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by sheep.
I once sent an 1855 LC in for regrade and attribution. It had a tiny white spot on the O in ONE. When the TrueViews posted the spot was gone and a tiny dark toning spot was in its place. Whether the white spot fell off during handling of the coin or whether air was used I don't know. The coin looks much better without the tiny pimple.
It's not Details if PCGS restores (conserves) it.
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That is not correct.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
It is correct.
Unless the conservation uncovers a concealed pre-existing condition, it will not be Details after restoration.
The PCGS Guarantee will apply if the coin downgrades.
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The trueview image and the image you uploaded are two different coins.
The Trueview shield has a scratch, the slabbed coin does not.
Not the same coin.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Let's clarify. If the coin was sent in in a PCGS straight graded holder prior to conservation then the normal re-grade guarantee is in effect and the prior grade is guaranteed.
In all other circumstances a conserved coin CAN come back in a details holder.
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@RiveraFamilyCollect Those are the same coin. I think what you circled is what the OP is referring to.
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Yes, OP says the trueview has debris on the shield but that looks like a scratch to me. There would be no way to remove a scratch so the slabbed coin cannot be the same one, it has no scratch.
I could be wrong but I don't think conservation would fill in a scratch.
So it seems to me the trueview and slab are different coins.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
They are the same coin. The white coin in the circle was what was removed from the surface.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Removed how? It sounds like OP didnt have the coin restored. The title is asking if they would have restored the coin without OP asking.
The substantial truth doctrine is an important defense in defamation law that allows individuals to avoid liability if the gist of their statement was true.
Toothpick. Compressed air. Rose thorn. Whatever. I have seen this white schmutz on coins in the past and sometimes it is left on the coin in the holder, but in this case it appears to have been forcibly removed. If you read my first post in this thread you would see I had a coin where PCGS admitted they removed dirt with compressed air prior to encapsulation without my request.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I like the coin the way it appeared before it was regraded. Full of original luster and skin. The new photo makes it look like all of that is gone.
If it were mine, and I didn’t ask for restoration, I would be inclined to call PCGS, ask for an explanation, and perhaps ask them to buy it from you and make you whole.
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Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately I don't recall if there was debris on the reverse when I sent it in, thus wondering if its something they might do. I prefer it without whatever the heck is showing on the trueview picture!
I am fairly certain it is the same coin in both pictures. All of the toning on the reverse matches except for whatever is going on in the bottom of the shield. Its just an AU53 1916 Barber so probably not worth sending back in to get re-imaged - was just curious if it had been fixed or if there was just something very wrong with the picture.
None of whatever this is is still on the coin.
Also it was not a regrade. This was something I bought raw in the 80s, and was just submitted for fun.
I believe they dust them off with air as part of the normal process. I have had coins come back without tiny specs of something that were there when sent in. Never anything major. I was happy and glad of the results.
Sent in an inexpensive Buff.
Not sure how that request played on the eventual grade.
Been too long ago to remember but it wasn't free or cheap.
My OCD would force me to do an entirely stand alone submission, just because it was a problem coin.
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Do they do it now? Don’t know.
Did they do it in the past? Yep
I’m sure both possibilities exist.
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I do not think so .. I had them restore a PCGS slab piece and it came back as PF64 vs the submitted PF63. However I presume in restoring a raw coin if it exposed some prior defects that may have been hidden it may receive net grade. I think their policy to restore an existing PCGS slab that it will not grade lower if restored
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This. Toning can hide a lot of hairlines, which is one reason why artificial toning is so looked down upon and why they had that tech that could detect if the same coin had already been graded.
I know the graders don't wear gloves because it increases the chance they'll drop the coin, but looking at OP's coin makes me wonder if they wear surgical masks so they don't cough/sneeze on it. 🤣
I'd give them carte blanche to conserve based on their best assessment of aesthetics. But as others have pointed out there is no upside for them to do that and only thankless costs and reactions for them to. I've heard of stories now many years ago of a dip being kept in a bathroom at a show with a sticker on it "for PCGS use only". I've had a few coins I sent in for grading come back with marks on them that were not present when shipped but more likely do to not using good packing practices where a coin or two came out of a flip. In a human enterprise stuff happens that may not be wanted.
If there is debris laying on the surface of the coin, it would make sense to use compressed air to blow it off since no one wants it floating around inside the slab should it come lose. I doubt they would do anything more extensive without first consulting the owner of the coin.
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Old(ish) thread alert. Does anyone know if PCGS has a policy regarding "natural" films on coins (i.e. the stuff that forms when copper comes in contact with paper)? I recently submitted a gold eagle that had been in a kraft envelope for a long time, and it was fairly crusty. I just got it back and the color is no longer mellow like I remember it being. It now shows signs of cleaning, and is graded as such. Since this could only mean the cleaning was hidden by a film all along, it makes me wonder if PCGS had the right to wipe it away without my permission.
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They touched up a spot on a MS seated half I submitted for crossover years ago. When I got it back you could see where the spot had been worked on.
At first, I thought the debris was a piece of cardboard that was blown off the coin. The closeup reveals it is a hard residue of some kind. You can thank your lucky stars that IMO, someone at PCGS removed it for you after the photo was taken. Lots of times a hard residue will chip off with a fingernail. However, in this case I'll bet a chemical was used as I don't see any traces of the deposit left along the relief lines. I doubt the graders keep chemicals on their desk though.
There is, of course, another explanation for the OP's coin...
PCGS cameraman, ready to take the picture
"Three, two, one..."
"Ka-CHOO!" click
"Oh, yuck. I'd better go wash that off, then."
Regarding the necro-question:
These "natural films" of which you speak are not substances being added to the coin's surface, which can simply be washed off with a solvent. They are caused by a chemical reaction on the coin's surface, which irrevocably changes it. In the case of a "kraft envelope", the substance in question is sulfur, outgassed from yellow paper. Such layers are corrosion, and can only be removed by a substance that can dissolve corrosion with minimal damage to the remaining underlying metal. "Silver dip" is such a chemical mixture, designed specifically to dissolve silver sulfide.
You're talking about a 90% gold coin. I would have thought those would not tone/tarnish under sulfur. If a gold coin had a "layer" of something on it, it was probably already there before the coin went into the envelope.
PCGS does not use such "dips" on coins, with or without the owner's permission, unless the coin is submitted for restoration and PCGS determines that a dip is the coin's only hope. PCGS does not under any circumstances "dip" a coin just for funsies, or because they think it'll make a coin look better. It's not their job to decide whether toning is acceptable or not.
You can read the guidelines on what they do and don't do for restoration on this PCGS Asia page.
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Now my question. Can a very light, hardly visible, PVC film become a thick green haze in a slab over time? That seems to be the case here. It would mean the chemical reaction that was invisible when it began continued to this point and will continue. In which case an argument to never even slab a PVC coin in a "details" holder.
Thanks
I think you are correct. It is mucus.
That's what I thought, too, but the patina seemed to have been removed to expose a past cleaning. Is this standard protocol? If so, how would they know to remove it if the cleaning wasn't visible before?
Young Numismatist • My Toned Coins
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I’ve had a few coins come back looking like they had been dipped. Although I believe it was an effort to make the coin look better.
I’ll post some before and after pics later that will confirm that not only did the appearance of the coin change, but that it was done after the true view.
I look forward to the pictures. I find it hard to believe as it would be too big of a liability for any TPG to alter submitted property without notice/approval I would think. The only situation might be if someone mishandled the coin and got a fingerprint on it I can image they might try to "fix" it.
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I only have a picture of the coin after it was imaged, of course I didn't think this could even happen so I didn't take any pictures beforehand.
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If we're talking PVC haze, then no, it shouldn't get worse to that extent just sitting in a slab. PVC goo does its damage more or less instantly, as soon as the goo comes out of the plastic. Goo might absorb more contaminants from the air if left exposed to open air, but the slab should prevent that.
However, if a PVC-goo-coated coin is put into a slab, the glue might start migrating into the slab's plastic, weakening it. You really don't want goo on the coins inside a slab.
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Before grading and right after removing from mint set.
Trueview.
And now slabbed. Squiggly lines 4:00 obverse and overall color.
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Interesting. Yeah, clearly something was done. I'm astonished.
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Going back to your comment about liability well, there's not much liability in this particular item. And in the end it did well at a .99c auction so no love lost.
That's the thing about liability. If it works out OK then everything's fine. But you could really raise a stink about it if you weren't happy with the result.
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Assume the 3 major hits were not there and it graded 67+ and this happened. Still be hard to get mad because of the grade.
edit: 5, 6, 7.
Years ago I sent a 67ultra cameo proof trade dollar to the other service. PCGS was not giving a DCAM designation at the time. It had light rim toning and I had been told by one of the graders to leave it alone as some people would always think it would 8. The service conserved it without asking and lowered the grade to a 66. I told one of the grader I knew and sent it back. They put it in a 67 ucam holder again. After a long time I crossed it to PCGS and then CAC stickered it.
That was the end of my submissions to the other service.
IMO, The True View matches your coin. Light and position of the coin can reveal or hide films.
I use the same lights for before and after pictures although before pictures were very bright.