Pillar coinage reference book questions?
NorthStar
Posts: 85 ✭✭✭
What reference book do you recommend for a rookie when it comes to pillar coinage? I see Brad Yonaka,s book often recommended. When searching Ebay all of Yonaka's books seem to be Mexico mint centric.
Thanks,
Northstar
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Gilboy's book is really excellent, covers all mints, but uncommon and expensive.
Yonaka does have _A Variety Guide to the Pillar Coinage of the Guatemala, Bogota, Lima, Potosi, and Santiago Mints 1751-1772 _ if you can find a copy.
Go with Yonaka's books the Gilboy book is a 400-500$ book and very hard to locate (there is one copy for sale at the moment I sent you the link).
I PM you Brad Yonaka's e-mail he sells his books in PDF format (printable) for much cheaper (his books can also be hard to locate due to small amounts printed).
He is coming out with a 2nd edition at some point of the book that covers Guatemala, Peru.....
As far as the one for Mexico I am not sure he will be doing a 2nd edition.
There is a copy of Gilboy's book for sale I will send you a PM. I suggest you buy Yonaka's books before buying a 500$ book. Yonaka sells his PDF's for 20$-30$.
I do not own a copy of Gilboy's book and I do not intend on paying the hefty price for one. I am more than OK with Yonaka's books and years of experience buying coins myself.
I have Gilboy's book. I bought it in 2002 on eBay for $65 when it was much cheaper.
It has background information similar to Yonaka's 2nd edition Mexico book, but the rarity scale and estimates are not necessarily or even usually reflective of the relative scarcity for the Peru coinage. It's way off for those rated "C" or common for at least Bolivia and Peru. Outside of the 8R, there are only a few (and maybe none) which reasonably might have over 1000 in VF or better. Same idea for his other rarity ratings. Compare to availability and estimates for Liberty Seated coinage where it should usually be lower or much lower, except for large mintage differences.
Yes, we always say buy the book before the coin but when the books are hard to find or really expensive you might use our forum or other internet resources to answer specific questions. What are you looking for that can only be answered in a book? Precise(ish) value estimates, like you can get with US coins, are not going to be available in books but you can research recent auctions for those. Some collectors/investors only ever care about identifying key dates (ugh). How to spot authentic coins for sale on eBay is just not a question that anyone (but maybe @realeswatcher) could answer. For general history, I recommend wikipedia.
I knew you guys would have some great advice. After trolling the many discussions about pillar coinage, I thought it would be wise to " buy the book before the coin". I'll probably go with Yonaka's book (pdf).
A book is fun to have in hand to look over and enjoy. I would just suggest not paying 400$-500$ for a book to start off with when there are some less expensive that are very well done.
There almost never a day I do not look threw my Yonaka books and have had them for years. For prices some places like Heritage Auctions archived auctions can help and some times not.
This is mostly applicable for the 8R. Many of the pillar coins I own have no available prior sale, at least that I could find before I bought it, usually in any quality.
The US concept of "key date" is almost entirely meaningless with pillar coinage. I'd rate it somewhat more meaningful for Mexico where the 1732 is one for all denominations and there are a few others fitting the general US definition. For Guatemala, all dates outside of the 8R are "Key". For Peru, most dates outside of some 1750's, with the qualification that none of these are often available in the quality most US collectors are used to buying. Some dates have a proportionately higher number (versus virtually none) but there aren't very many mid-grade coins available, even with problems.
Rarity scale for Latin American coins is completely different than US coins.
Common in Latin American coins means 20 or more known (Yonaka).
The only coins that there is an abundance (again nothing like US coins but still available often for Latin American coins) of are Mexico 8 reales (milled) minus the 1732. The milled 1732 Mexico 8 reales comes up for sale a few times a year it is the most common milled 1732. There about 50 to 75 that exist. Most coins minted were 8 reales (80%-90% or more each year).
People need to stop quoting Yonakas observed examples as how many are “known”. They represent how many Brad has seen.
Latin American Collection
One thing about the Gilboy book - the appendices are outstanding and have detailed info about mint operations, equipment, salaries of mint employees, etc. It really answers a ton of questions about Spanish milled coinage in general (e.g. why there are more 8 reales than any other denomination) and is just downright interesting. I hardly collect the pillar series and think it is really useful. Maybe not for a beginner but it certainly has its place in the library.
Sorry you are correct. Of course he has not seen all examples that exist of every coin. No one will ever have it down to an exact science.
I do not own the Gilboy book are his estimates better? I quote Yonaka because he is the most recent author on these series. I do not give my own estimates (very often) because I am no were near an expert compared to Yonaka. And if I did give to many estimates I would be blasted. The only series I follow closely are the early milled 1 reales of Latin American but even after a few years of searching daily I am not an expert (maybe in 10 years from now will see then).
I also followed the milled Mexico 8 reales for a few years. Not decades so I am not an expert.
Brad even says, in his book, that the observed numbers should correlate to relative scarcity, not to absolute scarcity (we see how common or rare a date is compared to others in the series.)
I’m looking forward to the second edition and seeing how many mora data points there will be. I would assume at least double in most cases.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Although @NorthStar mentioned pillars, you should be aware of Bob Gurney's book that focused on portrait 8 reales but is no longer easy to find with a simple search anymore!?! There are lots of forged examples of all reales out there so be informed and be careful.
edit: had to fix the link because the one I originally copied got blocked -- a conspiracy to keep us ignorant of these forgeries?
My point was that Gilboy's rarity estimates make no sense. His rarity scale isn't exactly clear to me either. His estimates for the Peru pillar minors would make many dates more common or a lot more common than the apparent consensus estimates for a noticeable proportion of Liberty Seated coinage. I see no basis for it.
As for Yonaka's survey, I'd describe it as mostly consistent with my observations, with the caveat that IMO it doesn't reflect the quality distribution accurately. I don't really care how many exist in total when the total includes examples I'd never buy.
This is reflected in the quality of the plate coin images. Gilboy's reference includes much higher quality examples which is one of the benefits to me of owning it. I'm able to identify specific coins I'd like to buy for my collection. There are very few plate coins in Yonaka I'd be interested in buying. (I own six or seven purchased years before the publishing date.)
Example: His survey shows the 1753 and 1757 Peru 2R as the most common of the denomination, but neither are available in better grades like the 1761 and 1771.
No, because it's not even a survey. See my prior reply to your post. I don't know how Gilboy came up with his rarity estimates.
The thing to keep in mind is that observation from personal experience is almost never representative. I attempt to compare different series using the factors that I believe explain survivorship and the quality distribution, but it's not science.
Most coins don't have good estimates, much less an itemized census, because no one or enough collectors are motivated to make the effort. It's a lot more prevalent for US coinage (1796-1797 half dollars, 1802 half dimes, 1794 dollars, numerous early gold), but these are coins with a long history of selling for high prices with a high collector preference. I understand there are also surveys for different segments such as early US copper, bust half dollars, and liberty seated coinage, but most of these coins might not be owned by those who specialize in it.
How about coins like the milled 1732's, early milled Colombia and early milled Chile reales? Are these not more well documented and we can get a better picture of just how many still exist. So few ever show up for sale. If so then there are certain areas of Latin American coinage we can assume are more accurate to reality (how many still survive).
Same for coins like the 1751 Peru 1 real and other such coins.
Anyways I hope the OP is able to add a book (s) at least it is a starting point. Better than navigating the ocean without anything to guide you.
Yes, your examples are more established, less so for 1751 Peru 1 Real and more so for the Mexico 1732s. More similar to the US examples I used. Probably or possibly a few more out there that are not generally known. It happens with US coinage too. I believe three 1751 Peru 8R are now known whereas it used to be two a few years ago.
Many 1732’s exist. Even more if you have a submersible and can find them at the bottom of the ocean.
Early Chilean pillars are well documented with a fairly static census. Since most have single digit number extant, it’s not hard to document them.
Latin American Collection
I thought most milled 1732's in ocean would be 8 reales vs lower denominations. I doubt many 1/2, 1, 2 or 4 1732's milled are at the bottom of the ocean. The lower the denomination the lower the number that would be in the ocean would be my logic since most coins carried on boats where the larger sized denomination 8 reales (based on history books I have). Even then I doubt they made many 1732 milled 8 reales (since they still made cobs in 1732 most would be cobs) to beginning with vs other years 1733 onward.
Not saying they do not exist in the ocean just not likely a lot of them. And even if there were say 100 of the 8 reales in the ocean how many are now destroyed over time and in very bad shape. Or stuck together with other coins and hard to take apart.
The few lower denomination coins carried on ships would have been in the people on boards pockets (and most were very poor having nothing with them money wise).
How about the early milled Colombia milled reales?
AI answer on the internet:
Here's why the 8 Reales is a common coin in shipwrecks:
Popularity:
The 8 Reales was widely used for international trade and commerce, making it a common currency on ships.
Shipwreck Context:
Many Spanish galleons, which carried large amounts of silver coins like the 8 Reales, were involved in voyages that often ended in shipwrecks.
Legacy:
The 8 Reales influenced the development of other national currencies, including the US silver dollar, which has a similar weight and design, according to Wikipedia.
Salvage and Discovery:
Shipwrecks containing large quantities of coins, including 8 Reales, are frequently discovered and salvaged.
My opinion: Locating a 8 reales milled 1732 (I have seen a few over the years) in the ocean would like be wining the lotto and finding a 1/2 real to 4 reales milled 1732 would be a miracle or close to it.
The original post was for self styled rookies, and then seemed to tilt toward a discourse on all literature. In that spirit I offer:
A third yet unmentioned source of information on rarity for (Antigua) Guatemalan coins only is the fantastic The Colonial Mint of Guatemala: An Account of its 90-Year History by Jara y Paiz.
This book is for specialists as it is esoteric and not cheap, but is worth every penny. The authors do not delve into varieties like Gilboy and Yonaka do, but the history and scholarship are fantastic. Reads like a well-illustrated thesis, and is bilingual.
Yonaka's scholarship and books are essential, and Gilboy is nonetheless worth the expense, and as Yonaka states in the forward to his books, is a companion piece to his work. Gilboy's book can also be fairly considered an investment.