@bronco2078 said:
there is one way premiums absolutely harm the buyer .
They can turn your brain into jello !
For example "I won't take less than 5000 for this ultra rare toned 3.45 oz silver bar. " I'll have you know its one of only 2 vaguely similar featureless lumps of metal of this exact size with the writing stamped at a slight angle thusly!
And then you lose your home because you mistakenly believe a random chunk of metal is some incredible rarity.
So you don't sell and then later after a slow painful death your heirs get 10% back of spot and wonder what was wrong with you . But they just chalk it up to all those years you painted cars without a respirator or summat
You certainly wont recover premiums selling lumps of gutter to dealers per se. You have to find another collector that believes the supposed rarity has some extra premiums. You can do so at places like ebay but after all the fees and potential fraud its hardly worth the trouble. I've always shook my head when I see people paying these premiums but to each their own. People got to stack or in this case collect whatever makes them happy. RGDS!
exactly , but the other collector is jello brained also. He wants to buy back of spot then ask 10x spot after he owns it he has unlocked its true potential !
the collector thinks by virtue of his enlightened ownership the item has become most holy
This last part isn't a metal thing per se. Beanie babies , 78 rpm records , action figures
@bronco2078 said:
there is one way premiums absolutely harm the buyer .
They can turn your brain into jello !
For example "I won't take less than 5000 for this ultra rare toned 3.45 oz silver bar. " I'll have you know its one of only 2 vaguely similar featureless lumps of metal of this exact size with the writing stamped at a slight angle thusly!
And then you lose your home because you mistakenly believe a random chunk of metal is some incredible rarity.
So you don't sell and then later after a slow painful death your heirs get 10% back of spot and wonder what was wrong with you . But they just chalk it up to all those years you painted cars without a respirator or summat
.
That reads like it was your own personal experience ?
In your story, the persons with the mental deficiency is not the original buyer. It is the heirs (idiots) that sold a valuable item at less than spot.
The market for rare silver ingots is a lot like rare coins, or art, or any number of things. If you know what you are doing, a person can do quite well with it, and enjoy it as well. Just make sure your heirs are aware of the potential value.
PS:
I would certainly pay a huge premium for this 4.10 troy ounces of silver. But the bid is already way beyond my budget (the next bid increment is $25,000 and with the buyers fee the cost would be $30,000 - and there is still several days of bidding to go):
No the heirs are not at fault . The jello brain collector left them a pile of stuff they had no idea what to do with. No obvious indicators of how to best dispose of it. Its a cruel joke some would say , to tell your kid you are leaving them with stuff of imaginary value 20 times its actual value to regular people.
collectors leave people all sorts of garbage. I was called to look at a "huge pile of coins from grandad " about 5 days ago. about 50 mint sets from the 70's and early 80's still in the cardboard boxes 5 sets to the box. miraculously the guy dodged around any years of possible interest and loaded up on the worst of the worst.
he opened all the boxes but then put the coins back in. I looked through them no missing mintmarks , no cameo gems no wide rim zip zilch. Then they thought it was a trick when I said it was worth essentially face value and I did not want to buy it at face.
i cant comment on that bar ive already been accused of slandering those bums once this week
two kinds of premiums for silver: that which is attached to the product because of it's rarity or collector desirability (old, bars, coins etc) and that which is attached to modern silver because of it's perceived quality (Silver eagle, maple, RCM bars, etc.)
Since I'm not a collector or seller of old silver I cannot speak for its premium value.
I can speak for modern silver from buyer and seller experience. I have never turned down paying the premium, I always get my premium back if not more.
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
@bronco2078 said:
No the heirs are not at fault . The jello brain collector left them a pile of stuff they had no idea what to do with. No obvious indicators of how to best dispose of it. Its a cruel joke some would say , to tell your kid you are leaving them with stuff of imaginary value 20 times its actual value to regular people.
collectors leave people all sorts of garbage. I was called to look at a "huge pile of coins from grandad " about 5 days ago. about 50 mint sets from the 70's and early 80's still in the cardboard boxes 5 sets to the box. miraculously the guy dodged around any years of possible interest and loaded up on the worst of the worst.
he opened all the boxes but then put the coins back in. I looked through them no missing mintmarks , no cameo gems no wide rim zip zilch. Then they thought it was a trick when I said it was worth essentially face value and I did not want to buy it at face.
i cant comment on that bar ive already been accused of slandering those bums once this week
gotta wait for the heat to die down
.
Maybe the "jello-brain" collector hated the heirs ?
But anybody that inherits a high-premium item and sells it for less than scrap value is purely an idiot.
PS:
Heritage Auctions does not set the price - the bidders do that. The $30,000 bar has multiple bids at this point. So more than one person values it highly.
@bronco2078 said:
No the heirs are not at fault . The jello brain collector left them a pile of stuff they had no idea what to do with. No obvious indicators of how to best dispose of it. Its a cruel joke some would say , to tell your kid you are leaving them with stuff of imaginary value 20 times its actual value to regular people.
collectors leave people all sorts of garbage. I was called to look at a "huge pile of coins from grandad " about 5 days ago. about 50 mint sets from the 70's and early 80's still in the cardboard boxes 5 sets to the box. miraculously the guy dodged around any years of possible interest and loaded up on the worst of the worst.
he opened all the boxes but then put the coins back in. I looked through them no missing mintmarks , no cameo gems no wide rim zip zilch. Then they thought it was a trick when I said it was worth essentially face value and I did not want to buy it at face.
i cant comment on that bar ive already been accused of slandering those bums once this week
gotta wait for the heat to die down
.
Maybe the "jello-brain" collector hated the heirs ?
But anybody that inherits a high-premium item and sells it for less than scrap value is purely an idiot.
PS:
Heritage Auctions does not set the price - the bidders do that. The $30,000 bar has multiple bids at this point. So more than one person values it highly.
I think there is a odor about them stretching back to the 1980's. Never mind the recent abuses in say the videogame market
@bronco2078 said:
im selling them at my store for 36 , i would not pay more than 27 each . That spread is too wide to make them a bargain
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
@bronco2078 said:
im selling them at my store for 36 , i would not pay more than 27 each . That spread is too wide to make them a bargain
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
I don't know exactly but I think spot was 31 at the time not 35 . People always take less if you are paying cash and not asking to see and then photograph their drivers license , if they want more they drive in closer to Boston I guess.
I shop stuff around at shows every month and while they might pay a dollar or 2 more for ASE's they also charge more. I personally don't like premium silver and see no reason to take in a lot of it. I would rather buy junk so I make better offers on that.
I'm still selling at 36 as of Saturday I don't bounce up and down minute by minute . I put out a batch and they sit until they sell , if spot goes down they sit a long time if spot goes up they disappear. then I put out another batch at whatever price I decide that day.
@bronco2078 said:
im selling them at my store for 36 , i would not pay more than 27 each . That spread is too wide to make them a bargain
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
I don't know exactly but I think spot was 31 at the time not 35 . People always take less if you are paying cash and not asking to see and then photograph their drivers license , if they want more they drive in closer to Boston I guess.
I shop stuff around at shows every month and while they might pay a dollar or 2 more for ASE's they also charge more. I personally don't like premium silver and see no reason to take in a lot of it. I would rather buy junk so I make better offers on that.
I'm still selling at 36 as of Saturday I don't bounce up and down minute by minute . I put out a batch and they sit until they sell , if spot goes down they sit a long time if spot goes up they disappear. then I put out another batch at whatever price I decide that day.
As I posted earlier, how are you authenticating the ASEs that you buy for below spot? Do you have a Sigma machine? Are you weighing the coins or testing them with a rare earth magnet? No informed seller would be selling authentic ASEs for below spot, although fakes are readily available in quantity for below spot on various websites.
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
I don't buy any in slabs though I'm not interested in any slabbed anything. People looking to sell that stuff always think its somehow worth more . To me its the opposite. Any time I put out anything in a slab the potential buyers don't want to pay anything extra for it so what would be the point?
Fake bars are most of what I have seen counterfeit and I don't want to buy any bars at all so thats fine. But those would be underweight or too big or somehow packaged to obscure the actual size or weight.
@bronco2078 said:
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
So, you buy ASEs below spot, but have no Sigma machine or other electronic testing machine. How about a Dunning-Kruger effect machine?
@bronco2078 said:
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
So, you buy ASEs below spot, but have no Sigma machine or other electronic testing machine. How about a Dunning-Kruger effect machine?
its done every day . all across the world . Go sell at a show and see if they are checking everything with a machine
@bronco2078 said:
I personally don't like premium silver and see no reason to take in a lot of it. I would rather buy junk so I make better offers on that.
.
With the increase in values for vintage bars, I have done FAR better with that than I have with any low-premium silver.
@bronco2078 said:
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
So, you buy ASEs below spot, but have no Sigma machine or other electronic testing machine. How about a Dunning-Kruger effect machine?
That's kind of a low blow, don't you think? Maybe you're overestimating your ability to judge @bronco2078's competency level...
@bronco2078 said:
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
So, you buy ASEs below spot, but have no Sigma machine or other electronic testing machine. How about a Dunning-Kruger effect machine?
That's kind of a low blow, don't you think? Maybe you're overestimating your ability to judge @bronco2078's competency level...
Some sort of effect anyway
How do people even buy fake eagles in person? Maybe a fake or 2 mixed in with a large lot that you over look but as a rule if they aren't in some goofy slab , you can tell by handling them. Just touching and looking at them .
Obviously you can buy fakes online in any number of ways , the do exist . Seller posts a pic of real eagles but sends different ones that fake or whatever. I've gotten some off ebay but they were 5 or 6 grams under weight or visibly off.
Unless they were struck in silver how could they be weight and size correct? Feel free to slip some copper nickle eagles hollowed out and filled with platinum to me any time. I'm sure those would sound wrong but I'll allow it
There is no particular reason to buy them online at all , they made at least 600 million of them they are not scarce locally and if you have seen one you have basically seen them all so there is no reason to care what years are available
@bronco2078 said:
im selling them at my store for 36 , i would not pay more than 27 each . That spread is too wide to make them a bargain
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
Asked my local shop "how much for your ASEs?"
Him: "Don't have any."
Me: "What's your buy price?"
Him: "$3 under spot."
Me: "Could be why you don't have any."
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
@bronco2078 said:
im selling them at my store for 36 , i would not pay more than 27 each . That spread is too wide to make them a bargain
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
Asked my local shop "how much for your ASEs?"
Him: "Don't have any."
Me: "What's your buy price?"
Him: "$3 under spot."
Me: "Could be why you don't have any."
its just the real market in action , if spot can be 31 today then 35 next week then a week later 31 again every seller wants a cushion so they don't overpay. Plus they may have local laws to deal with. a guy I know 2 towns over has to hold items he buys from the public segregated for 30 days and the cops can come look for reported stolen property . He allows for what might happen to spot in that month and pays accordingly.
In any case most want to see price stability before they tighten spreads because the physical market only loosely tracks spot in its fluctuations.
smart buyers refuse to be herded into purchases by spot fluctuations , smart sellers pull inventory to create local scarcity or if they see a lot of demand stock the shelves to sell into it as best they can while it lasts.
Comments
exactly , but the other collector is jello brained also. He wants to buy back of spot then ask 10x spot after he owns it he has unlocked its true potential !
the collector thinks by virtue of his enlightened ownership the item has become most holy
This last part isn't a metal thing per se. Beanie babies , 78 rpm records , action figures
curious mental gymnastics
.
That reads like it was your own personal experience ?
In your story, the persons with the mental deficiency is not the original buyer. It is the heirs (idiots) that sold a valuable item at less than spot.
The market for rare silver ingots is a lot like rare coins, or art, or any number of things. If you know what you are doing, a person can do quite well with it, and enjoy it as well. Just make sure your heirs are aware of the potential value.
PS:
I would certainly pay a huge premium for this 4.10 troy ounces of silver. But the bid is already way beyond my budget (the next bid increment is $25,000 and with the buyers fee the cost would be $30,000 - and there is still several days of bidding to go):
https://coins.ha.com/itm/ingots/a/1382-3620.s?ic2
No the heirs are not at fault . The jello brain collector left them a pile of stuff they had no idea what to do with. No obvious indicators of how to best dispose of it. Its a cruel joke some would say , to tell your kid you are leaving them with stuff of imaginary value 20 times its actual value to regular people.
still in the cardboard boxes 5 sets to the box. miraculously the guy dodged around any years of possible interest and loaded up on the worst of the worst.
collectors leave people all sorts of garbage. I was called to look at a "huge pile of coins from grandad " about 5 days ago. about 50 mint sets from the 70's and early 80's
he opened all the boxes but then put the coins back in. I looked through them no missing mintmarks , no cameo gems no wide rim zip zilch. Then they thought it was a trick when I said it was worth essentially face value and I did not want to buy it at face.
i cant comment on that bar ive already been accused of slandering those bums once this week
gotta wait for the heat to die down
two kinds of premiums for silver: that which is attached to the product because of it's rarity or collector desirability (old, bars, coins etc) and that which is attached to modern silver because of it's perceived quality (Silver eagle, maple, RCM bars, etc.)
Since I'm not a collector or seller of old silver I cannot speak for its premium value.
I can speak for modern silver from buyer and seller experience. I have never turned down paying the premium, I always get my premium back if not more.
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
Premiums on gutter bars? CRZY WRLD!
I've never seen vertical and horizontal bars on an avatar, double not so secret probation?
.
Now permanently banned, apparently.
.
.
Maybe the "jello-brain" collector hated the heirs ?
But anybody that inherits a high-premium item and sells it for less than scrap value is purely an idiot.
PS:
Heritage Auctions does not set the price - the bidders do that. The $30,000 bar has multiple bids at this point. So more than one person values it highly.
I think there is a odor about them stretching back to the 1980's. Never mind the recent abuses in say the videogame market
You buy ASEs for 20% under spot? How are you authenticating these ASEs? I would think only Chinese counterfeits would be available for purchase at $27 when spot is nearly $35.
I don't know exactly but I think spot was 31 at the time not 35 . People always take less if you are paying cash and not asking to see and then photograph their drivers license , if they want more they drive in closer to Boston I guess.
I shop stuff around at shows every month and while they might pay a dollar or 2 more for ASE's they also charge more. I personally don't like premium silver and see no reason to take in a lot of it. I would rather buy junk so I make better offers on that.
I'm still selling at 36 as of Saturday I don't bounce up and down minute by minute . I put out a batch and they sit until they sell , if spot goes down they sit a long time if spot goes up they disappear. then I put out another batch at whatever price I decide that day.
As I posted earlier, how are you authenticating the ASEs that you buy for below spot? Do you have a Sigma machine? Are you weighing the coins or testing them with a rare earth magnet? No informed seller would be selling authentic ASEs for below spot, although fakes are readily available in quantity for below spot on various websites.
I've never seen a fake ASE that wasn't too light or dimensionally wrong , or cast . 99% of the time you don't need to do anything. Same goes for most any known format morgan dollars etc. They either weigh wrong or look wrong.
I don't buy any in slabs though I'm not interested in any slabbed anything. People looking to sell that stuff always think its somehow worth more . To me its the opposite. Any time I put out anything in a slab the potential buyers don't want to pay anything extra for it so what would be the point?
Fake bars are most of what I have seen counterfeit and I don't want to buy any bars at all so thats fine. But those would be underweight or too big or somehow packaged to obscure the actual size or weight.
So, you buy ASEs below spot, but have no Sigma machine or other electronic testing machine. How about a Dunning-Kruger effect machine?
its done every day . all across the world . Go sell at a show and see if they are checking everything with a machine
I'm just not seeing it unless its jewelry
.
With the increase in values for vintage bars, I have done FAR better with that than I have with any low-premium silver.
.
That's kind of a low blow, don't you think? Maybe you're overestimating your ability to judge @bronco2078's competency level...
Philippians 4:4-7
Some sort of effect anyway
How do people even buy fake eagles in person? Maybe a fake or 2 mixed in with a large lot that you over look but as a rule if they aren't in some goofy slab , you can tell by handling them. Just touching and looking at them .
Obviously you can buy fakes online in any number of ways , the do exist . Seller posts a pic of real eagles but sends different ones that fake or whatever. I've gotten some off ebay but they were 5 or 6 grams under weight or visibly off.
Unless they were struck in silver how could they be weight and size correct? Feel free to slip some copper nickle eagles hollowed out and filled with platinum to me any time. I'm sure those would sound wrong but I'll allow it
There is no particular reason to buy them online at all , they made at least 600 million of them they are not scarce locally and if you have seen one you have basically seen them all so there is no reason to care what years are available
Asked my local shop "how much for your ASEs?"
Him: "Don't have any."
Me: "What's your buy price?"
Him: "$3 under spot."
Me: "Could be why you don't have any."
Gold has a world price entirely unaffected by accounting games between the Treasury and the Fed. - Jim Rickards
its just the real market in action , if spot can be 31 today then 35 next week then a week later 31 again every seller wants a cushion so they don't overpay. Plus they may have local laws to deal with. a guy I know 2 towns over has to hold items he buys from the public segregated for 30 days and the cops can come look for reported stolen property . He allows for what might happen to spot in that month and pays accordingly.
In any case most want to see price stability before they tighten spreads because the physical market only loosely tracks spot in its fluctuations.
smart buyers refuse to be herded into purchases by spot fluctuations , smart sellers pull inventory to create local scarcity or if they see a lot of demand stock the shelves to sell into it as best they can while it lasts.