i get the impression he's in the area of loans business and is looking for additional ideas
I am in finance but not lending. I neither need nor want any additional clients. I find it both humorous and sad when people vilify all forms of debt. Clearly, especially for an enormous death of middle to low income Americans, managing debt is a large problem. The credit system, if not understood and managed properly, can be devastating.
However, as is so often the case, some people project their own issues and shortfalls into others. I don't think that a long term debt commitment to a hobby is a wise idea. To pay a few thousand dollars in interest instead of a greater amount in taxes, penalties, dealer commissions, or just as an opportunity cost is not necessarily a bad thing.
If someone has struggled with debt their entire lives and is now debt free and on a fixed or moderate income, borrowing to buy a $2k coin can certainly be problematic. If one has more substantial means and is borrowing short term to buy a $200k coin, it's a different situation.
And @Steven59 , I don't know anything about you but it seems apparent by your comment that you are not in the habit of buying rare coins valued in the six figures. Quality coins don't necessarily come around every two months or even every two years. If a wealthy collector wants to spend a couple extra percent in interest to save years lost searching for a replacement, that is money well spent for a well heeled buyer.
You didn't bother to read any of the rest of my post or you didn't understand it.
If you think someone who spends a few thousand dollars extra in interest for an opportunity to buy a rare, $200k coin and can pay off the amount at will is "going into debt", you clearly don't get it and never will.
Ok, I do know something about you.
You didn't bother to read any of the rest of my post or you didn't understand it.
If you think someone who spends a few thousand dollars extra in interest for an opportunity to buy a rare, $200k coin and can pay off the amount at will is "going into debt", you clearly don't get it and never will.
So you are a jerk just like people warned me about - thanks for proving their point. I'm done with you.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
If it's a really rare coin and you really want it and you have a really reliable source of income and the financial discipline to pay off the loan over a reasonable time frame, I say go for it and buy it. Hopefully, the novelty of the coin won't wear off before you make the final payment on your loan.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Well, that's the chance ya gotta take. Nobody needs a coin that bad to go into debt for. JMO
Some people don’t want or need or to take that chance. And depending on their particular financial situation, there might not be anything wrong or dangerous in taking a loan. On the other hand, for someone else, it could be a very foolish and financially dangerous option.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lenders can get ~5% with no work or risk so a transaction involving a coin as the only collateral is going to be pricy. My guess is HA will give you the best rates.
@humanssuck said:
There is no harm in financing for convenience. I have financed some things over the years where I had the money, but i was making more money keeping it invested in the bonds I had them in than i would lose paying interest on financing.
Financing because you cant yet afford it is a terrible idea.
I totally agree as I did the same thing about 7 years ago with a gold purchase I made whereas I had the funds and the loan interest was offset by bonds and stock dividends.
And I wholeheartedly agree that taking on debt when you can't afford an item is a very bad idea!
I would really like Golden to explain his comment especially since he's also a National Bank Note collector. A couple of years ago, a major collector of Nationals died and his collection went to auction fairly quickly. He had notes that I had been waiting FORTY YEARS to come on the market. Because of the number of notes involved, I didn't have the cash on hand to buy everything I wanted so I made arrangements with the auction house to spread it out. So, I splurged in the auction, got everything I wanted, and have since paid the invoice completely off.
So, if I had followed Golden's advice, I wouldn't have the notes I wanted. What was I supposed to do? Wait another 40 years?
I agree that National Bank Notes are a different ball game. Back in 1990 I flew to NYC to bid on a National from my home state. It was the only one in the auction from my state. I won the note but forgot about the juice. It was 10% at that time. I had to stall for about 2 weeks. The note is now worth 10 times what I paid.
The op is talking about a coin. I think that is very different. Although a 1794 Dollar is very pricy, they do come up fairly often.
I think some are missing the point this coin will not sell for less than 300k and the OP is talking about 200k. He is not in the game to win this coin in this grade I am sorry to say there is no chance it sell for 200k.....none.
If you really want a 1794 dollar then like I said focus on a lower grade or one that is authentic.
there was recent ha auction with higher grade coin that finished in the 300k area
contingencies won't hurt
I meant buy one in a PCGS or NGC holder that may have an issue like say cleaned in his price range that does not cause him financial problems. All I am saying is live within your means that is a rule of life to highly consider. You do not but 300k coins unless you have millions of dollars and I do not mean 1 or 2 million but more like 5-10 million or more.
Maybe I am wrong maybe he can get it for around 200k will have to wait and see. But as stated I would not spend 200k on a coin unless I had 3-5 million dollars.
I have a large part of my home paid off and I never even consider buying coins in the 10k range. I own just 2 coins worth 1000$ or more. Coins are a hobby not something worth risking your home for or financial disaster. I understand the pull that drives people to want things but at some point you have to be realistic about your social class and stay in your lane.
@TheGoonies1985 You better send an email to Mr. Pittman and tell him not to mortgage his house as it will be a risky low pay back investment. Timing is everything if you are going to risk everything.
@willy said: @TheGoonies1985 You better send an email to Mr. Pittman and tell him not to mortgage his house as it will be a risky low pay back investment. Timing is everything if you are going to risk everything.
That was a long time ago things have changed a lot since then. One winner (Pittman) and how many losers. Like everything in life people focus on the small percentage of winners.
The OP can do whatever he wants it is his money and life not ours. He may turn out to be a winner long term and he may not.
Do not get me wrong the 1794 dollar is a great coin to own.
Thing is when most of your money is tied up in a coin you are more likely to sell it faster than later once you need some funds and that time always comes.
we did have one forumite who had installment payments going on with a coin shop when the dealer died. there was a problem with evidence of the deal. another aspect of counterparty risk
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
@Cougar1978 said:
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
I agree a coin is not worth making a mess of ones life. Can't afford it don't buy it.
@Cougar1978 said:
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
There is a HUGE difference between inventory and a collection.
I have purchased a couple “once per generation” coins with short term financing. I knew I could easily satisfy the terms and it was worth it to me. Sometimes I just preferred to keep liquid cash intact and pay over a short period.
It’s a great tool if used responsibly.
Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
i have no idea if @vpr Purchased and or financed the coin in question. i just hope he has people in his life that are not nameless strangers on the internet espousing personal views on debt to help advise him. I also hope he posts a picture if he did buy it. Would be fun to see what the hub bub was about. James
@Cougar1978 said:
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
There is a HUGE difference between inventory and a collection.
Some people have great difficulty considering circumstances and points of view beyond their own. And their replies tend to be off point when they don’t bother to pay attention to the discussion at hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You didn't bother to read any of the rest of my post or you didn't understand it.
If you think someone who spends a few thousand dollars extra in interest for an opportunity to buy a rare, $200k coin and can pay off the amount at will is "going into debt", you clearly don't get it and never will.
Ok, I do know something about you.
You didn't bother to read any of the rest of my post or you didn't understand it.
If you think someone who spends a few thousand dollars extra in interest for an opportunity to buy a rare, $200k coin and can pay off the amount at will is "going into debt", you clearly don't get it and never will.
So you are a jerk just like people warned me about - thanks for proving their point. I'm done with you.
Perhaps you need a concrete example instead of lashing out at @lermish .
When I bought my car three years ago, I had the funds available to pay cash. However, I also had access to a 1.49% fixed rate loan.
I shifted the funds into a brokerage account and took the loan. I have been earning market rates on that and paying off the loan. I am making money in spite of having the loan.
I did not “go into debt”. The loan is balanced by the brokerage account, and my purchase has not created any difference to my net worth compared to paying out all the cash at once. Well, except that I actually have more money this way, and I still have the unpaid portion of the purchase price at my disposal, as well as having the car.
It's apparently quite easy to get a low interest loan if you have a house. A local dealer took out a loan on his house recently to buy an $80K collection. Anything beats risky investments and if you know what you're doing with limited downside risk it's a risk worth taking. Many auction houses want immediate payment without attractive terms.
A line of credit makes a line of debt and who likes being in a line ? Although rare coins are as hard to find….as a good loan officer. Take a chance. Life is short.
I have used payment plans at Stacks & Heritage. Generally they charge a fee to setup the financing and 1%/month.
Some people don't understand that there are legitimate reasons to use temporary financing as it can take time to move money around, get things transferred, or maybe wait for better timing on something.
@Cougar1978 said:
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
There is a HUGE difference between inventory and a collection.
Some people have great difficulty considering circumstances and points of view beyond their own. And their replies tend to be off point when they don’t bother to pay attention to the discussion at hand.
@Cougar1978 said:
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
There is a HUGE difference between inventory and a collection.
Some people have great difficulty considering circumstances and points of view beyond their own. And their replies tend to be off point when they don’t bother to pay attention to the discussion at hand.
You're taking about me, aren't you? 😉
You wish.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Never done it before, but I just recently applied for extended financing on a major purchase in case I won it thru Heritage, it was a fairly simple process, was approved in less than an hour, but I lost the bid the other night. so I guess it didn't matter. I know I could have got it paid in full in less than 3 months, kind of regret not pushing bid higher at this point, but its not the end of the world. theyll be another day, maybe not on that coin
Surprisingly, a C/C can be a reasonable financing source. I have three card that I never use except occasionally for cash advances. I can get the credit limit of these three and pay a promotional rate of 4% currently, for between 12-15 months.
Interest has to be paid in advance of the cash advances and monthly minimum payments equal a minimum of 1% per month on balance of the cards so actually it’s an effective rate in excess of 4%, but not by much.
>
If you don’t have a home equity loan it’s a very viable option, considering closing costs, etc. to set up such equity loan
>
The one thing is when the promotion is over, you better be ready to pay ‘em off as the interest on the carry over balance can easily exceed 25%!
Comments
I am in finance but not lending. I neither need nor want any additional clients. I find it both humorous and sad when people vilify all forms of debt. Clearly, especially for an enormous death of middle to low income Americans, managing debt is a large problem. The credit system, if not understood and managed properly, can be devastating.
However, as is so often the case, some people project their own issues and shortfalls into others. I don't think that a long term debt commitment to a hobby is a wise idea. To pay a few thousand dollars in interest instead of a greater amount in taxes, penalties, dealer commissions, or just as an opportunity cost is not necessarily a bad thing.
If someone has struggled with debt their entire lives and is now debt free and on a fixed or moderate income, borrowing to buy a $2k coin can certainly be problematic. If one has more substantial means and is borrowing short term to buy a $200k coin, it's a different situation.
And @Steven59 , I don't know anything about you but it seems apparent by your comment that you are not in the habit of buying rare coins valued in the six figures. Quality coins don't necessarily come around every two months or even every two years. If a wealthy collector wants to spend a couple extra percent in interest to save years lost searching for a replacement, that is money well spent for a well heeled buyer.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
It probably won’t be available.
Well, that's the chance ya gotta take. Nobody needs a coin that bad to go into debt for. JMO
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
@lermish
And @Steven59 , I don't know anything about you -
Then you should leave it right there!
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
Ok, I do know something about you.
You didn't bother to read any of the rest of my post or you didn't understand it.
If you think someone who spends a few thousand dollars extra in interest for an opportunity to buy a rare, $200k coin and can pay off the amount at will is "going into debt", you clearly don't get it and never will.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
>
So you are a jerk just like people warned me about - thanks for proving their point. I'm done with you.
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
If it's a really rare coin and you really want it and you have a really reliable source of income and the financial discipline to pay off the loan over a reasonable time frame, I say go for it and buy it. Hopefully, the novelty of the coin won't wear off before you make the final payment on your loan.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Some people don’t want or need or to take that chance. And depending on their particular financial situation, there might not be anything wrong or dangerous in taking a loan. On the other hand, for someone else, it could be a very foolish and financially dangerous option.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lenders can get ~5% with no work or risk so a transaction involving a coin as the only collateral is going to be pricy. My guess is HA will give you the best rates.
I totally agree as I did the same thing about 7 years ago with a gold purchase I made whereas I had the funds and the loan interest was offset by bonds and stock dividends.
And I wholeheartedly agree that taking on debt when you can't afford an item is a very bad idea!
🇺🇸 Harlequin
harlequinnumismatic@gmail.com
I agree that National Bank Notes are a different ball game. Back in 1990 I flew to NYC to bid on a National from my home state. It was the only one in the auction from my state. I won the note but forgot about the juice. It was 10% at that time. I had to stall for about 2 weeks. The note is now worth 10 times what I paid.
The op is talking about a coin. I think that is very different. Although a 1794 Dollar is very pricy, they do come up fairly often.
I think some are missing the point this coin will not sell for less than 300k and the OP is talking about 200k. He is not in the game to win this coin in this grade I am sorry to say there is no chance it sell for 200k.....none.
If you really want a 1794 dollar then like I said focus on a lower grade or one that is authentic.
?
there was recent ha auction with higher grade coin that finished in the 300k area
contingencies won't hurt
I meant buy one in a PCGS or NGC holder that may have an issue like say cleaned in his price range that does not cause him financial problems. All I am saying is live within your means that is a rule of life to highly consider. You do not but 300k coins unless you have millions of dollars and I do not mean 1 or 2 million but more like 5-10 million or more.
Like this one that sold for 84k in 2023:
This one sold for 234k back in early 2024:
Maybe I am wrong maybe he can get it for around 200k will have to wait and see. But as stated I would not spend 200k on a coin unless I had 3-5 million dollars.
I have a large part of my home paid off and I never even consider buying coins in the 10k range. I own just 2 coins worth 1000$ or more. Coins are a hobby not something worth risking your home for or financial disaster. I understand the pull that drives people to want things but at some point you have to be realistic about your social class and stay in your lane.
Coins a speculative investment at best.
@TheGoonies1985 You better send an email to Mr. Pittman and tell him not to mortgage his house as it will be a risky low pay back investment. Timing is everything if you are going to risk everything.
That was a long time ago things have changed a lot since then. One winner (Pittman) and how many losers. Like everything in life people focus on the small percentage of winners.
The OP can do whatever he wants it is his money and life not ours. He may turn out to be a winner long term and he may not.
Do not get me wrong the 1794 dollar is a great coin to own.
Thing is when most of your money is tied up in a coin you are more likely to sell it faster than later once you need some funds and that time always comes.
we did have one forumite who had installment payments going on with a coin shop when the dealer died. there was a problem with evidence of the deal. another aspect of counterparty risk
Sold for 240 000$
I thought it would go 250k+ guess I was wrong.
Wonder if the OP got the coin?
No idea, late to the party but I will gladly finance him at 9-10%. Let me know. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Accumulating debt to buy coins is a road to bankruptcy / disaster. The people I have seen their coin inventory financed by debt / they can’t make enough of a margin to overcome the debt along with the other biz opex LOL.
I agree a coin is not worth making a mess of ones life. Can't afford it don't buy it.
There is a HUGE difference between inventory and a collection.
I have purchased a couple “once per generation” coins with short term financing. I knew I could easily satisfy the terms and it was worth it to me. Sometimes I just preferred to keep liquid cash intact and pay over a short period.
It’s a great tool if used responsibly.
i have no idea if @vpr Purchased and or financed the coin in question. i just hope he has people in his life that are not nameless strangers on the internet espousing personal views on debt to help advise him. I also hope he posts a picture if he did buy it. Would be fun to see what the hub bub was about. James
Some people have great difficulty considering circumstances and points of view beyond their own. And their replies tend to be off point when they don’t bother to pay attention to the discussion at hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
So it makes it a $205,000 coin; BFD!
Perhaps you need a concrete example instead of lashing out at @lermish .
When I bought my car three years ago, I had the funds available to pay cash. However, I also had access to a 1.49% fixed rate loan.
I shifted the funds into a brokerage account and took the loan. I have been earning market rates on that and paying off the loan. I am making money in spite of having the loan.
I did not “go into debt”. The loan is balanced by the brokerage account, and my purchase has not created any difference to my net worth compared to paying out all the cash at once. Well, except that I actually have more money this way, and I still have the unpaid portion of the purchase price at my disposal, as well as having the car.
It's apparently quite easy to get a low interest loan if you have a house. A local dealer took out a loan on his house recently to buy an $80K collection. Anything beats risky investments and if you know what you're doing with limited downside risk it's a risk worth taking. Many auction houses want immediate payment without attractive terms.
Edit - miscommunication.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
A line of credit makes a line of debt and who likes being in a line ? Although rare coins are as hard to find….as a good loan officer. Take a chance. Life is short.
I have used payment plans at Stacks & Heritage. Generally they charge a fee to setup the financing and 1%/month.
Some people don't understand that there are legitimate reasons to use temporary financing as it can take time to move money around, get things transferred, or maybe wait for better timing on something.
http://ProofCollection.Net
it was the 1794 dollar in fine(
) that recently closed. 240K all in i think
also op said he was in the banking/lending(
) biz and apparently just looking for other ideas
You're talking about me, aren't you? 😉
You wish.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Have you tried auction financing via credit card debt lol.
Never done it before, but I just recently applied for extended financing on a major purchase in case I won it thru Heritage, it was a fairly simple process, was approved in less than an hour, but I lost the bid the other night. so I guess it didn't matter. I know I could have got it paid in full in less than 3 months, kind of regret not pushing bid higher at this point, but its not the end of the world. theyll be another day, maybe not on that coin
Surprisingly, a C/C can be a reasonable financing source. I have three card that I never use except occasionally for cash advances. I can get the credit limit of these three and pay a promotional rate of 4% currently, for between 12-15 months.
Interest has to be paid in advance of the cash advances and monthly minimum payments equal a minimum of 1% per month on balance of the cards so actually it’s an effective rate in excess of 4%, but not by much.
>
If you don’t have a home equity loan it’s a very viable option, considering closing costs, etc. to set up such equity loan
>
The one thing is when the promotion is over, you better be ready to pay ‘em off as the interest on the carry over balance can easily exceed 25%!