My story of a $5000 loss...
pengvin67
Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
Hello all,
Long read, but This is my current situation with PSA...I'm kind of shocked as to what the outcome might be and was not expecting this at all, so I'll post and just get opinions if there are any...
I don't want to go too much into my background as to not bore you, but I have been a card enthusiast since I was probably 10 years old. First pack was a 1984 Topps Football Rack Pack which had the NFL Star Set Dan Marino on top and I never looked back. In any case, I know the hobby decently along with the grading aspect, so I have stumbled upon this situation that is going to cost me a good amount of money it seems.
I owned a PSA 10 Upper Deck Alexander Ovechkin Young Guns rookie. I personally pulled the card from a box probably 10 years ago. I thought it looked like a 10 and went ahead and submitted the card to PSA about that time. The card came back a psa 10 and I put it into my collection (which basically is keeping graded cards in the box that PSA returns the card in). No display or anything like that. I have most of my cards in memory and which box they are located in, and they are organized somewhat. As Ovechkin has been getting close to the goal record, I've been tracking the card prices for the PSA 10 of the Young Guns. It has been hitting between $5000 to $6000, so I thought to myself that this might be a good time to sell. I wasn't sure if I was going to consign or just go ahead and list on my Ebay store. (pengvin67). I have very strong feedback and have been around a long while so I figured I would have as much value selling on my store for $5500 to $6000. The first thing I check before listing anything in my store is the condition of the card if it's raw and for graded cards I'll look over the case for any scratches/scuff marks. I know from experience buyers want a clean, clear case. I pull out the slab for the PSA Ovechkin and do my routine of checking the case under the light. Make sure there won't be an issue with the case. As I'm moving the case up and down in the light, the card slides up a bit up and down as well. I then noticed on the bottom border of the front of the card, there is a bit of a significant nick going on. I did not notice it before because as the card sits in the case the bottom border blends into the bottom of the case. I think to myself what the eff is this on the bottom border. I know that nick wasn't on the bottom of the border when I first submitted the card, so it had to have happened after the grading and then being slabbed. This nick is significant enough that it would definitely not have graded a PSA 10 by even the worst grader. However, I know that it was as close to perfect when I submitted the card. I think to myself well, it's still a PSA 10 and I'll go ahead and sell it. However, I felt like I was doing something wrong by selling the card in my store knowing that this card is not a PSA 10 at this point. I can go over my thought process, but to make a long story short, I remember thinking that PSA backs up its grades with a guarantee, so I should be covered. In hindsight, I should have just sold the card, but I was thinking I might have to go through returns if the buyer noticed, and I didn't want to go through that hassle. To be honest, I just felt like it was morally not right. I've been in the business too long to put others in tougher situations than need be. I e-mailed PSA CRC and explained the situation and sent them pictures of the border. I was e-mailed a label and told to send the card back in for review. Nothing else was mentioned about the process or anything. This was a few weeks ago. Today I get informed that my PSA 10 card is now a PSA 6. I will be refunded $133.25 because the value of the card in 2018 was $300 - $25 for a PSA 6 that I will have in my possession. I will also have a $150 voucher for use as well. My $5000 to $6000 card is now worth the combo of a PSA 6 and $133.25 cash + a $150 voucher. I'm a bit shocked as to this situation still. I just want to get thoughts. I'm currently thinking that I should have just sold the card and let it be somone else's problem. But that doesn't feel right to me. I don't know at this point what is right and what should have been done. All thoughts are welcome and sorry for the long message.
Comments
So if I would have bought that card from you for $5k today and send to PSA for the review..they would still honor the price as if it was 2018?
I wonder what they would have done if the card was only worth 50.00 at todays market vs the 300.00 in 2018.??
I think it was a stand up move on your part to not try and knowingly sell a damaged card and push the problem off on someone else.
As far as the pricing goes, I can't comment too much on that because I've never sent in a card for review like this. But how does anyone know pricing from that long ago? Is that $300 PSA's price or did you come up with that?
I watched this video before contacting PSA. I thought that my situation would fall into this umbrella. I'm just stunned at this point. I feel like I did the right thing for the hobby and my character/integrity. I could not sell that card to an unaware buyer. This is one of the most expensive cards that I owned. I was super excited about Ovechkin breaking the record and knowing that I had a PSA 10 that I personally pulled from a pack and knew it had a chance at a 10 back in the day. For this to happen is very sickening. I feel physically sick. Not trying to be extreme but I could have used the money. It was a dream situation with what was going on with Ovechkin and history.
PSA came up with all the financial reimbursement. I have no idea how or why something that happened in 2018 is relevant to the fact that a card in 2025 is worth almost $5k+. I can post the email from PSA.
PSA reaches out to you before they do anything. An option is to send back exactly what you sent them.
Ask for the damaged PSA 10 back. They probably will not charge a grading fee.
Of course, the issue is you for not inspecting the card when it was originally sent years ago.
Then sell card and be as up front as you are already. Offer a discount. Ther are people out there that buy the case not the card. Good luck.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
PSA will not send the card back in a psa 10 holder. Only a psa 6.
At the time there was nothing for me to really inspect. I thought the card was a psa 10 and it got a psa 10 thankfully. I put it back in the box where it had been sitting for years now. I only looked at cards more closely that I got back from psa that were lower grades than expected.
This sucks - sorry that you’re going through this. To play devils advocate - not suggesting that this is what you did whatsoever - could PSA be taking the position that “we need to make sure someone doesn’t intentionally hold onto a known damaged card in the hopes that prices skyrocket and request a much larger reimbursement”? Like if one of the PSA 10 Mantle rookies has signs of damage, is reviewed, and is downgraded - PSA would only need to reimburse the difference of the price at the time of grading instead of current market price? I can see the benefits from a business perspective but it’s crappy for customers.
Others have said that Nat is approachable on social media - might be worth hitting him up there to get him involved.
Jim
I understand that PSA needs to protect their business but at the same time, I'm not trying to scheme anything at all. I understand what you're saying. If that were the case, I just sell the card and take my money and run. That would have been the low road. I took the high road that I thought was morally right. PSA would have had to make it right with the buyer of a defective card if I went that route. But PSA won't reimburse the supporter of their company who patronizes their business? That doesn't make any sense to me. I didn't do anything wrong and I didn't expect the card to explode in value. I could have dumped this issue onto an unsuspecting buyer, but I thought PSA would make this situation whole. $135 compensation is like a slap in the face. I'm just shaken right now so I'm processing the emotions and thoughts.
I sent Nat a message on IG. I'm not sure it's the right Nat, but I think so. Let's see what happens. Thanks for your input and everyone else.
I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. My suggestion would be to read the PSA guarantee carefully, since it may address this scenario. Otherwise, I think common sense dictates using current market value. Good luck!
Sorry if my response wasn’t clear… I’m definitely not accusing you of anything and I think everything you’ve done is very principled - there are many people who wouldn’t have been so honest. I was just trying to put PSA glasses on to make sense of their response. From a “circles the wagons” perspective, I can see why they did what they did. But from a customer service perspective, they might be biting their nose off to spite their face.
I agree that looking into their TOCs around their guarantee will be important, and that might be where a lawyer can help parse the text carefully and let you know if you have a valid legal argument.
Jim
That is a genuine horror story, I am very sorry for your loss.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
I do appreciate all the responses and everyone's input. I'm definitely not feeling attacked or accused of anything. As I've said, I thought that I made the most honorable decision considering the nature of the hobby. I thought that PSA would see that as something to take care of. I mean $135? Yes, I have a psa 6 Ovechkin as well. I guess that's another $500 to $600? Wake up with a card that you think is worth several thousand only to be told that we can't know for sure when your card was damaged, but we still graded out at a 10, but it's not a 10 and now it's a 6. After 8 years we calculate that the situation is worth $135 compensation. 🤷 and a sorry.
You suffered the damage in 2018, thus you get paid out based on when the damage occurred to YOU. If you had sold it, then the damage would have occurred to that person when they purchased it and it did not reflect what they purchased.
Not sure what the rules were in 2018, but TODAY, the rule is you have 5 days to declare damage after receiving a submission back.
Unfortunately you invoked the guarantee as the original owner, so they know your cost. Your damages aren't $5k as you never paid $5k+. You would have never gotten a return selling it on eBay because the card would go through eBay Authenticity Guarantee, and once it passes, it can't be returned... At the very least you should have "sold" it to a friend and then have the friend send it in.
Sadly you should have posted here asking for advice BEFORE contacting PSA.
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After reading the Guarantee on PSA's site, while you were being "honorable", I can see now based on the terms I highlighted below, in reality you were an IDIOT
My condolences....
https://www.psacard.com/financialguarantee
NO, they would honor the price based on what YOU paid. Or in legalese the "damage" to you.
That is no how it works. PSA controls the cert for eternity. If they get information that the cert is not accurate or proper anymore they can deactivate the cert. And of course if the improper cert/card comes into PSA's possession, then they have the right to correct it. They are NOT going to return a card with an improper flip/cert back into the wild so that they can then pay out on the guarantee later.
Only a crossover with a min-grade gives you control to get something back as is since it isn't a PSA slab. I guess if you sent in a card for a review, which of course would never be a review on a PSA 10, could come back with a check and lower grade if PSA felt the current grade was nowhere close.
I really don't understand the position of calling someone an idiot. I can understand you pointing all the legalese out and that's totally fine. Fine, I'm not entitled to anything legally. I still think that PSA is wrong about how they are handling this situation from a moral standpoint. PSA did damage the card and that damage cost me $5000. Fine, PSA is not obligated to pay. I'm just pointing this out so other folks can learn and see how PSA treats people in the wild. I appreciate your input but I just don't understand calling people idiots.
If this ever happened to me, I would sell the card as-is, in the PSA 10 slab, with a clear description of the issue. Let a potential buyer make their own decision of it's value and what they are willing to pay.
Your integrity is admirable, but I think you took too much responsibility for something that wasn't your fault.
Thanks man. I appreciate that. I don't like making life difficult for others. You're right. I should not have taken the burden upon myself. I just thought PSA had more integrity and character to see how I conduct myself.
So sorry this happened to you. One question and if you already discussed this I apologize. Was the card damaged before you received it back from PSA or sometime after you received it while you had it in storage?
So your recommendation would have been to engage in fraud in an attempt to resolve the matter? Sometimes it's just better to keep your mouth shut.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
The 'C' stands for Brash.
In this case I think it's the tone of the response that makes all the difference.
I think that pengvin is a good dude here and it is a bad circumstance. I don't think he's an idiot for not interpreting this situation. PSA does not make it very easy to understand. But I agree that the liability they really face here is the value when the card was returned. In the same way that they didn't send an upcharge when the card increased in value. It's a good lesson to check your cards when they come back for damage. I'm guilty of not doing this myself.
Sad story but refreshing to see one trading card seller (@pengvin) who took a 100% moral and ethical approach!
With hind-site easy to say perhaps he should gone about it differently to both keep the moral and ethical high ground and not lose 5K.
PSA actions in this situation IMHO are shameful & reprehensible. Type of actions I'd expect from CGC never from PSA. If PSA wants to succeed in Comics Grading they need to be better than CGC is to their customers on all fronts Cards/Coins/Comics/Video Games etc...
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
It was meant to be in jest, but the T&C's of the Guarantee ruled you out from coverage before you even sent it it, you just didn't bother to read it (or if you did, then maybe you really are
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But I don't understand how you claim that the damage "cost" you $5000. You didn't pay $5000. Yes, I guess you have a missed "opportunity" of $5000, but that is different than a cost or damage. In reality, you never had a PSA 10 in your possession (or you did, but motion damaged it inside the case during your handling, or the shipping) for which to appreciate in value.
Sadly you relied on your assumption that you'd be covered, but as they say "assumption is the lowest form of knowledge". Proper knowledge was worth $5000....
How is it fraud, you are selling the flip, not the card. PSA says it is a 10, then it is a 10 until PSA says otherwise. Now PSA says otherwise.
It's not fraud, it's a game of Hot Potato! The alternative is $4700 less value.
Based on the terms I highlighted, I think PSA makes it pretty easy. I just don't think the OP read it....
May I ask what you intended for PSA to do or return? I agree, I would not have sold it without stating the condition issue. Let the buyer decide. they might be happy with a reduced price on a PSA 10. But by sending it back, The only thing that could be done was to downgrade it. If they graded it a PSA 9 you would still be out a lot of money.
Rufuss ain't no doofus, he just leads with a pitchfork.
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A lesson to be learned here. Use the same degree of inspection used pre-submission on your cards, and apply that degree upon the receipt of your cards.
No worries sir and no need to apologize at all. I'll answer any questions. I received the graded card from PSA back in apparently 2018 (PSA noted in the e-mail). I honestly didn't even know the card was damaged on the border. When I first submitted the card, I knew that it had a chance at a 10. I was super happy when I got the card back as a 10 and just put it back in the box and had left it there until now. I have hundreds of PSA graded cards just sitting in their "PSA" boxes from when the submissions were returned. I never looked at any card again after it came back except for a super low grade from my estimation. I only pulled out the card as Ovechkin was chasing the Goal record. I thought it was the appropriate time to sell. I only looked at the card more carefully as I was checking the PSA case for any scuffs or scratches. Buyers don't like those on cases I've learned.
I appreciate this sentiment and I actually have no problem with the gentleman stating the facts from PSA. I think calling me an idiot seems to be a bit unnecessary. I'm just trying to be a good person in the hobby. Is that not worth anything? I absolutely know that I could have played the game of, I'll just go ahead and sell it, get mine and never look back. I think about the person who may be a true Ovechkin fan who just made that big purchase to add to their collection, and then seeing the ding on the bottom of the card. I could have taken pictures and hidden it and I actually missed it myself with the way the card sits in the holder. The bottom edge is hidden when the card sits all the way down. Am I going to pass the PSA error to another person for $5000 or maybe $6000. My integrity, character can't be purchased for that little amount. Yes, I'll probably take the loss, and a very big loss, but the actual fact is PSA did damage my card in their possession. The card received a 10 for heaven's sake at that time. If the card didn't get damaged in the holder, or that process, I would have a PSA 10 card worth that amount. It's really that simple. I got effed because, yes, I didn't realize that I can't submit a card for the reimbursement. But I thought PSA would at least offer more than $135 on a $5000-6000 loss. Does PSA need a set of rules to define what they should do in this situation? They reimbursed a gentleman $10,000 who posted on youtube for a situation where they were the buyer and the card that was a 9 was a 5. I thought, oh ok, PSA makes people good for their negligence. I didn't expect PSA to go to a time machine back to 2018 and make their ruling from that point. They have every legal right to do whatever, but from the overall concept of the guarantee, I'm really taking a huge financial loss, by actually helping PSA. I could have left the card out in the wild and never looked back. PSA doesn't see that as value in their world. They got out of a situation that could have been another black eye towards their standards and an unhappy buyer of one of their PSA 10 cards.
I definitely understand that, but a card that was graded a PSA 10 that I thought was a PSA 10, didn't really catch my attention at that time. I was more observant of cards that got PSA 7s that I thought were 9s and 10s if that makes sense. It was just business during those years. I have so many cards in boxes hanging all over my house that I haven't even looked at in years. I know that they are there, but I've never had a card that has taken off in value and it HAPPENS to be a card that PSA damaged. I made my moral decision of taking it out of the wild. I thought that was worth more than $135. That's all.
At the time and watching a video on youtube that seemed to be a similar situation to mine, I thought PSA would compensate the value of the PSA 10 card minus the actual grade of the card after damage. The card was damaged in the possession of PSA. At least be in some realm of the value and to evaluate what truly happened. Also, PSA has to know that I could have just sold the card and they may have had to deal with that scenario at some point. It is just a frustrating situation to be honest.
Thank you man. I guess at the end of the day, I made the decision that fits my persona and what I believe in. The main thing I've learned in my life is that you don't pass your problems on to someone else. That is not a good way to live. I know the hobby and I know how disappointing it can be, especially the grading aspect. I can't look someone in the eye knowing that what I'm selling them really isn't worth what it states. I didn't damage the card and I'm not trying to deceive anyone. I thought PSA could easily put 2 and 2 together. Card gets graded a 10, card is damaged and now a 6. Damage had to occur at the PSA level after grading, otherwise card would not have received a 10 with the noticeable ding. Patron can sell card for $5000 to $6000 on their own if they chose. Patron didn't do that and decided to point out situation. PSA decides, Oh cool, with our language we only have to reimburse patron $135 and get out of this mess. Thank heavens for us. This is the company PSA in a nutshell.
I appreciate your thoughts Rufuss and obviously did the research to show that PSA is very correct in their assessment. That's fine I didn't read the terms at the time. I thought this is a bit beyond needing reading terms to really assess the situation. PSA knows what I could have done and I went the route of being very honest. PSA has decided that $135 should cover the integrity and character of their company. Some people need books, terms, contracts to know how to make just decisions. I always believed that our heart and logic should show us the right way in life. Yes, it may cost me $4700 or so, but I didn't throw my problem on to another person's life. How much is that worth?
Not to rub salt in the wound, but....seeing this happened to your card in 2018 sent me back to the year 2013 - the year I quit sending cards to PSA for grading after almost 10 years of mostly consistent business with a few gaps. The reason: As time passed from my earliest experiences with the process, I began to notice the quality of the work was slipping. Maybe due to higher volume and the pressure of pleasing a lot of people who were very dependent at the time, they were doing a lot of what I called "speed grading". I received several cards in orders which showed signs of mishandling with little dings and chips to borders which certainly would not have passed my own inspection had they looked that way before I sent them. I shrugged it off and just decided I'd had enough of the grading game. Kudos to those who can still deal with them, I just can't right now with all the horror stories going around. I love my raw collection today and it's all good.
As for your collection of PSA graded stuff all over your house, you might yet have some other undiscovered hits in there somewhere. Better check.
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If I put a dent in someone's car 10 years ago and didn't know it . Then they came to me and wanted me to pay for repairs , but the car is now an antique and the repair will cost a lot more than 10 years ago , I would only pay for when it was damaged .plus, you didn't lose 5000 dollars . You never had the money. It's just money you didn't gain . There's a difference.
BTW light scratches and scuffs can be removed with PlastX (made for headlights) and decent elbow grease.
I've done it on hundreds of slabs over the past 10 years. Most come out perfect and the one that dont are still a huge improvement.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
No salt in the wound at all. I'm most likely going to follow suit after this debacle. I can't associate myself with a company that feels like this is a fair compensation for my situation. The scandals associated with PSA that were brought to light by BODA on blowout forums was an eye opener. I didn't want to fall into the same umbrella of making decisions that I thought are morally questionable because there is already enough of that in the hobby. There's enough negative. I never even asked PSA
For any specific amount. Their offer of $135 was a slap to the face. It's just another black mark for the company even if they can justify it with terms and conditions. Like I'm trying to do something malicious. 🤷
I appreciate the suggestions of course. And yes, I'll go through my boxes. That Ovechkin was special. Might be tough to find something like that. It is life.
I believe I have it and do use it on occasion to make sure my buyers are getting the best of their purchase. At least the best that I can do for them. I have 100% feedback after 25 years so I'm doing my best out here. 🙏
Interesting take on your end and I can see what you're saying for sure.
A couple questions. I'm not even trying to argue but I'm trying to show you what I feel.
I owned a PSA 10 Alexander Ovechkin 2005 upper deck young guns card on 3.1.2025. If I asked you to help me value the card, what would you tell me it's worth as of that date?
If I were to sell the card at that time, what do you think that I could sell it for?
Do I have the ability with the situation that occurred to sell the card at that same price because of the damage to the card? What's the PSA 6 worth today?
You don't see any loss, but you see it was just a missed opportunity to gain? Should I have just went ahead and sold the card for the $5000 to $6000 when I had the chance, but because I didn't, I'm not really losing anything? To me it was a great opportunity to take advantage of a situation that happens generationally. How often is there a chance to find a card in your collection that has gone up 20x in value. Only for me to find out the card was damaged by PSA, but it was still in a psa 10 slab. The damaged card still had the label to be sold at $5000 to $6000. But your thought for me is oh well, you didn't lose anything. Again, not arguing with you because you are entitled to feel a certain way based on your beliefs and experiences. I'm just giving you my perspective and what it feels like to lose the opportunity to make a huge sale. That's all.
What a horror story. These are the stories that got me to quit using PSA years ago. That being said, let me know if you're interested in selling the card.
Brian
Sorry this happened.
I just thought PSA had more integrity and character to see how I conduct myself.
Integrity & character? They don't give a rip. They can make the rules, change the rules and interpret them to their advantage anytime they like.
I wonder what would have happened if you had sold the 10 on ebay. It would have been sent to PSA for authentication before the buyer received it, would they have just passed it along to the buyer, or would they have deemed it no longer a 10 and sent it back? IF they had sent it to the buyer and and the buyer did not like it and sent it in for review would they have been compensated? Would you have been protected after PSA had passed it the 1st time. So many questions that will probably go without answers, but it really stinks for anyone involved in the situation.
Are you referring to the PSA 6? I still don't have it as I have not accepted their offer. I would sell once everything is resolved. I signed up for the PSA membership in November 2024 after several years off. I don't even feel like sending in the cards that I had vetted to submit.
I'm understanding this completely in real time. I never even asked them for any specific amount. I did explain that I could have sold the damaged PSA 10 card for $5000 to $6000 no problem but chose not to add another eye sore, black eye for PSA graded card in the market. And not to screw over another hobbyist by dumping a damaged card in their lap. I thought that would carry some weight in compensation at least. What the heck was I thinking? I guess for PSA that is worth absolutely $135 plus $150 in vouchers.
If sold on eBay as a 10, it would likely have been rejected by the authenticator and returned with refund to the buyer. That's why the authentication process is there to protect people from receiving goods which are not as advertised.
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Tough situation.
If faced with the same situaiton and after reading their guarantee, I would have sold it "as is".
An interesting moral situation... I may have some remorse but $5K is a lot of money, you didn't create the problem and these companies should have the reserves/wherewithall to aborb the situaiton.
The new owner could have gotten their money back in 2025 prices and therefore the ultimate culprit takes accountability for their original mistake/error.
Another way to view it using an analogy would be you buy a new car, you sell the car and then the car has a product recall. The car manufacture is going to remedy the situation for the current or new owner. They backed their product fully, regardless of who owns it. In your case the PSA service is not adhering to this approach (at their discretion and I respect that decision). That would help me rationalize selling it "as is".
A really interesting situation...
Erik
The flaw in the reasoning is that when you make a claim of damage, it is based on when the damage occurred. Damage cannot appreciate in value. Just like you can't make a claim for future appreciation, it goes both ways. Now you do have present day psychological damages, but of course that is not a covered claim.
Yea, in hindsight I should have taken that approach. I'm really not sure why I felt wrong about putting the card out there. I guess I felt like it was a reflection on me as a person to sell something that I know is potentially a problem. I felt bad that someone would spend that amount of money on a damaged card. I really thought PSA would do the just thing to compensate for my moral compass. I guess I should have realized money rules the planet.
FWIW, I also think it is inappropriate to call you names for "doing the right thing".
Everyone can feel different about the same situation & I applaud you for handling it the way you did.
If I'm being honest, I cannot say I would have done the same thing -- and that may make you a better person than I -- in this situation. So be it.
Erik