Is there a fake coin in PCSG Photograde? or am I seeing an allusion?
Ringgy
Posts: 59 ✭✭
Look at the G04 coin verses the VG10 coin, both 1884 but the last feathers are not in the same location, now if they were both 1886 then, no problem
12
Comments
Here is the G04:
Here is the VG10:
peacockcoins
I'm no expert here, but both coins look genuine imho.
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To what are you alluding?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
I would equally challenge the position of the "1" is different between the two examples.
peacockcoins
Well now THAT would be an interesting find!
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Here are the reverses:
G04:
VG10:
peacockcoins
True, but many different die pairs were used to strike 1884 cents. 122 of them according to Rick Snow’s attribution guide. And more-so, these are just coins in a grading set. Not the same coin subsequently worn down.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I had a litte time on my hands so I checked just about every listing on eBay for these 1884 cents. Out of a couple of hundred (yes, I eventually gave up) I didn't come across a single example that matched the G04 strike above.
I know that isn't scientific, yet it is a bit telling I'd think.
peacockcoins
I sent a query to Rick. Hopefully he will answer.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
This is hardly my area but it looks like there was a design change in 1886 that matches the differences shown. Doesn't explain why this G4 has the later design, and I don't see anything obvious to suggest an altered date, or why someone would fake a common date in low grade. -- https://www.indianvarieties.com/indian-head-cent-design-hub-types/
This is actually quite a significant observation. Good job!
The G4 looks genuine to me, but it's obviously from the 1886-1909 hub. I wonder if the date was altered? Seems like that would have been a waste of time. Maybe an IHC expert can chime in.
Fascinating thread. Thanks for bringing this to the board’s attention, @Ringgy.
The reverses do not necessarily match with the obverses (don't have to be same coin).
It is interesting that the 1884 points between the CA and not the IC.
I wonder if it is a 'pattern' ?
Good catch on this, very interesting!
Seems there was a previously undetected die variety for 1884 that has finally been recognized.
I am not much of an Indian collector to know how or even whether the needle moves in terms of seeking out this coin. Clearly there is a difference.
Astute observation Ringgy… well done
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
The best explanation is simple: PCGS, like anyone else, can make mistakes. It's either a fake or an altered date, and not one that one would think a need to take a close look at.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
Dear Aegis,
The 1884 coin is 100% genuine and this is why. In the late 1970's I held an 1885 cent with the low feather obverse of 1886 in VF condition. Joe Gallo had it (RIP) in Joe Levine's (RIP) store. I never dreamed one could exist two years before the change in 1886. I've been casually looking for the 1885 since then (not diligently as I pretty much gave up decades ago). The only reason I'm telling all of you this is because these coins (84 & 85) exist; and I believe this discussion will guarantee one of you will find them before the year is out.
GOOD LUCK you'll need it!
Good eye to catch that difference.
@Ringgy Well done spotting the fake! 👍
Solution: the date was photoshopped to turn it into an "1884" (it's a cut and paste job). The giveaway is that the second "8" is a duplicate of the first. I've pointed out some of the matching areas within the two "8"s, and there are also some in the adjacent field as well.
I’m not sure about the 8’s but the inside of the 4’s sure appear to have the same markers.
Joe.
Odd. Why would they bother? There's no need to have an particular date. Removing damage?
Good catch!
Now don't that beat all. Why?
Clear photoshop of the 8. Maybe the host has other hidden Easter eggs on the site? Great catch to @Ringgy for the initial find and @IkesT for catching the photoshopped 8.
+1
I wonder if perhaps, not having a lot of pictures of low end coins to work with, they had an 1894 that met the grade but it had a damaged 9. A little photoshop and viola!
considering how this started, it can lead to erroneous observations and conclusions (also date wear will be off)
the problem is pcgs doesn't seem to update coinfacts, so i doubt they'd update this. perhaps if they received an outpouring of requests they can be persuaded to change it.
anyone have an old tv of a g04?
Edit.
Coin Photographer.
the dirt inside the 8's holes are the same
Great job @MsMorrisine. It is definitely been altered, regardless as to how. Here is photogrades actual comparison photos.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Is it?
What a waste of time @Ringgy as now you will have to get another alt and put this one back in the box.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
ok, but it is in other places
I thought that same thing, but even around the numbers themselves there seem to be quite a few similarities.
IkesT nailed it IMHO.
peacockcoins
And as @UncleJoe has pointed out the 4 on each coin has the same internal dirt. Additionally, the 4's themselves share the same marks as well as some off the digit. G4 on left and VG10 on the right.
@IkesT hit the solution!
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
FlyingAl could be wrong, those 8s look very similar with nicks and spots - but why?
Well if that doesn't beat all. A multi million dollar company has to use fake photos. Frankly, I would've expected better.
After I pulled this into photoshop today, I noticed it could be photoshopped. You can't see it in the images above because the forum software evens out the pixels, but in photoshop you can see the pixel lines where the crop may have been done. My mistake for my earlier post, and I do tend to agree with Ikes. I'm not certain though given how poor resolution the images are.
Coin Photographer.
So I guess we can conclude that slabbed G4 Indian Cents without significant damage are ultra rare,
so it is easier to photoshop one with date damage from other photos in the grading set?
Or maybe it's primarily an Easter Egg planted by the person who assembled these grading set photos.
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/Indian/Grades
They likely had many more 1894 IHCs certified in low grades by folks who found the 1894 RPD. By using one of these images it is likely that the folks at PCGS just thought they could slide this in as a G4 1884 and didn't realize anyone would notice it.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The 1884 G 4 picture needs to be replaced. This is not a good look.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Whether it was replaced or never there, the photo on photograde is a true g04 IHC. I doubt that PCGS would knowingly do such a thing when tons of g04's are available. I feel the op's photo to be a fake that was created as a lark by someone very good with photo manipulation software. This is the current photo on photograde of a G04 IHC. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
could an 1877 be used for the g4?
They would bother because finding coins that are matches for the grade can be tough. I have heard before that some images in all the Photo Grades have been edited. Congrats to Ike. That coin is real and he has convinced me it has been altered. That is a relief; however, I know what I had in hand back then. The proof will be when they turn up.
It’s the same photo…what do you mean?
You are correct. My mistake. Now I apologize to the OP as I mistook the photograde example wrongly and thought it was different.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain