@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
To exclude a seller from your search - to the right of the search button, hit the advanced link.
It gives you many options, towards the bottom is sellers
change the Include to Exclude and then enter all of your non-favorites
luckily all of my (skip these sellers) have a watermark or distinctive background so I know to not even bother looking
You made my Christmas with this gift of knowledge... Thank you!
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@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
You have to go to advances search, scroll down until you see "Sellers" and fill in that section before searching:
I don’t see anything inherently wrong with cracking out a details coin and selling it raw on any venue. If it is likely to sell for a higher price raw then why not?
What I do think is wrong is to misrepresent it in any way, whether through “juiced” photos or over the top descriptions like “Gem BU+” that would imply a problem free grade. Or laying on BS about it being from a “original roll”. Just take an accurate photo and let that speak for itself.
I would never buy a high value raw coin and assume it had never been in a grading room. That’s just dumb IMO. It’s raw for a reason.
I just joined this forum to be a lurker but I couldn't resist adding to this discussion. I work part time for a coin dealer who has been in the business long before grading services were around. He cracks out his own problem coins and either sells them raw or sends them to a different grading service. Sometimes they get straight graded. I've never seen him or any of us fail to explain why a raw coin is being sold at a "bargain price".
I hear stories of the old days. He told me he especially misses the old PCI red label slabs that made him rich. Back then, 8 out of 10 PCI problem coins would get straight graded by the big companies. He says it is all a game. Recently, he had some of the ugliest (to me) original brownish toned coins grade MS-67+. It turned two of the coins I would have guessed had a sheet value of less than $80 each worth well over $1000 each in the slab. They are off to get beaned. I'll bet some poor sucker who buys labels rather than coins that would appeal to everyone including me will end up putting them into a registry set until a greater fool comes along.
@yspsales said:
Who buys a raw $600 coin... much less a $6k coin?
I had a negative once. Ebay will let you challenge. Mine stayed negative, then it fell off somehow months down the road when I was selling alot.
People who know what they're doing. I've heard of $100k coins selling raw - but not necessarily for $100k.
In the context of this thread - I don't necessarily see anything particularly wrong with what they are doing, provided they believe there is a chance the coin could straight grade, or is in their opinion what they list it for. I don't know if there's an intent to deceive. Submit a PCGS Details coin 100 times, and it might come back straight graded one or two, or thirty, or 99 times. No one knows until you try it X amount of times. The seller is hedging that bet. You don't have to buy the coin or bid on it.
I recall a thread not too long ago of someone ripping this exact seller, and made something like 200% profit on a Proof they called MS. What about that 1916 cent PCGS called MS Details that was a Proof that was a thread here a couple days ago?
Really what it comes down to is this - do you know what the risk you are making is?
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
@yspsales said:
Who buys a raw $600 coin... much less a $6k coin?
I had a negative once. Ebay will let you challenge. Mine stayed negative, then it fell off somehow months down the road when I was selling alot.
I wonder if some Crypto Money finds its way into coins like these? Imaginary to tangible investment maneuvers? The pain will come with the selling but easy come, easier going?
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
That's where the ethical line is drawn.
+1, I'd say that about sums it up for me. Plenty of forum members buy details coins to crack out for albums, and many of those ultimately will trade raw next time. many of us enjoy handling the coin outside of the plastic, and you can take better pictures of it. I draw the line when the seller assigns their own grade (GEM BU ++++) or juices their pictures to hide flaws. If asked whether it will grade, just be transparent about any hairlines, ring dims, etc.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
There is more to this listing than simply cracking the coin out. You're ignoring the made up back story and edited photos.
I'm fairly new to collecting but even I knew almost right away that Denver Coin Co was up to no good. It's ridiculous to try to make people think that you just happen to come across all these coins in raw form. The way they use filters and edit their photos to make the coins look better is so scummy.
@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
Click “Advanced” near the ebay search bar, then scroll down to the section where you can toggle “exclude” and then list all the sellers you want to exclude from your search.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
The "hidden problem" problem is handled by the buyer easily by claiming the coin is not as described. That the photos were misleading to hide ___ and ___. There's no need for regulations for sellers here the way eBay is designed in favor of the buyer.
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
I don't "like it", but there's no way to enforce it. 99% of cracks outs are unlikely to even be easily identifiable as being the same coin.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
I think "impossible" more than difficult. EBay allows all buyers to SNAD any item with no proof required. There is no way for anyone to be able to even identify undisclosed issues for 99% of listings. The coin under discussion here would not even be flagged if it had not been noticed as having been in a slab before. The toning is not obviously artificial.
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
@ebaybuyer2 said:
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
If it is so easy, why has the seller not gone this route.
Obvious shill bidding.
Glad to know I can block him.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
Comments
You made my Christmas with this gift of knowledge... Thank you!
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes if players see an opening will crack them out (details holders) then sell raw, buyer beware. Learn how to grade and look at coins.
You have to go to advances search, scroll down until you see "Sellers" and fill in that section before searching:
Dip I'm all I say. Nothing worse than seeing the nasty on a coin that should be blast white. RGDS!.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
I don’t see anything inherently wrong with cracking out a details coin and selling it raw on any venue. If it is likely to sell for a higher price raw then why not?
What I do think is wrong is to misrepresent it in any way, whether through “juiced” photos or over the top descriptions like “Gem BU+” that would imply a problem free grade. Or laying on BS about it being from a “original roll”. Just take an accurate photo and let that speak for itself.
I would never buy a high value raw coin and assume it had never been in a grading room. That’s just dumb IMO. It’s raw for a reason.
interesting .... now what will the chatter be if that same coin lands in a straight grade holder ?
Up to $51.00 as of this post.
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I do. Not $6K coins though.
I just joined this forum to be a lurker but I couldn't resist adding to this discussion. I work part time for a coin dealer who has been in the business long before grading services were around. He cracks out his own problem coins and either sells them raw or sends them to a different grading service. Sometimes they get straight graded. I've never seen him or any of us fail to explain why a raw coin is being sold at a "bargain price".
I hear stories of the old days. He told me he especially misses the old PCI red label slabs that made him rich. Back then, 8 out of 10 PCI problem coins would get straight graded by the big companies. He says it is all a game. Recently, he had some of the ugliest (to me) original brownish toned coins grade MS-67+. It turned two of the coins I would have guessed had a sheet value of less than $80 each worth well over $1000 each in the slab. They are off to get beaned. I'll bet some poor sucker who buys labels rather than coins that would appeal to everyone including me will end up putting them into a registry set until a greater fool comes along.
People who know what they're doing. I've heard of $100k coins selling raw - but not necessarily for $100k.
In the context of this thread - I don't necessarily see anything particularly wrong with what they are doing, provided they believe there is a chance the coin could straight grade, or is in their opinion what they list it for. I don't know if there's an intent to deceive. Submit a PCGS Details coin 100 times, and it might come back straight graded one or two, or thirty, or 99 times. No one knows until you try it X amount of times. The seller is hedging that bet. You don't have to buy the coin or bid on it.
I recall a thread not too long ago of someone ripping this exact seller, and made something like 200% profit on a Proof they called MS. What about that 1916 cent PCGS called MS Details that was a Proof that was a thread here a couple days ago?
Really what it comes down to is this - do you know what the risk you are making is?
Coin Photographer.
Cool. Another eBay seller bashing thread. At least the coins are genuine.
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
I wonder if some Crypto Money finds its way into coins like these? Imaginary to tangible investment maneuvers? The pain will come with the selling but easy come, easier going?
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Over $300 right now.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I do.
I love buying raw, no matter what the price and have done very well (solid expertise with Canadian coins and ICCS).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I understand your position.
You paid your tuition and every coin is an opportunity.
For most this is not the case.
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I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
That's where the ethical line is drawn.
+1, I'd say that about sums it up for me. Plenty of forum members buy details coins to crack out for albums, and many of those ultimately will trade raw next time. many of us enjoy handling the coin outside of the plastic, and you can take better pictures of it. I draw the line when the seller assigns their own grade (GEM BU ++++) or juices their pictures to hide flaws. If asked whether it will grade, just be transparent about any hairlines, ring dims, etc.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
There is more to this listing than simply cracking the coin out. You're ignoring the made up back story and edited photos.
https://www.ebay.com/str/canyoncitycoin?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l170197
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm fairly new to collecting but even I knew almost right away that Denver Coin Co was up to no good. It's ridiculous to try to make people think that you just happen to come across all these coins in raw form. The way they use filters and edit their photos to make the coins look better is so scummy.
$300 and counting
Denver Coin has 106 coins for sale now. Six are certified with fixed prices. The remaining are over hyped crack outs in an auction format.
Click “Advanced” near the ebay search bar, then scroll down to the section where you can toggle “exclude” and then list all the sellers you want to exclude from your search.
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Patience. It's likely coming.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The "hidden problem" problem is handled by the buyer easily by claiming the coin is not as described. That the photos were misleading to hide ___ and ___. There's no need for regulations for sellers here the way eBay is designed in favor of the buyer.
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
I don't "like it", but there's no way to enforce it. 99% of cracks outs are unlikely to even be easily identifiable as being the same coin.
I think "impossible" more than difficult. EBay allows all buyers to SNAD any item with no proof required. There is no way for anyone to be able to even identify undisclosed issues for 99% of listings. The coin under discussion here would not even be flagged if it had not been noticed as having been in a slab before. The toning is not obviously artificial.
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
Smart buyer... stupid buyer
The shill taxes you all.
If it is so easy, why has the seller not gone this route.
Obvious shill bidding.
Glad to know I can block him.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?