1848-O Half Dime - A new die marriage
epc
Posts: 242 ✭✭✭✭
I recently purchased the pictured coin. The position of the Large O mint mark does not match any of the others used that year (in the V-1, V-3, V-6 and V-7 marriages). It is very low and to the right. In @yosclimber 's draft guide for the issue (almost 6 years old), the V-2, V-3, V-4 and V-5 all used the same obverse die. The obverse of my new coin (let's call it V-9 for now) looks about the same. But I noticed in it a die line in the drapery, almost parallel to the pole. This die line also appears in my VG V-5 and in the NGC MS 62 V-5 from the Crain collection (#1724), and not in coins of the other three marriages. If the V-5 and V-9 used the same obverse die as V-2, V-3 and V-4, then they would have to be later uses. But those V-5 and V-9 coins do not have cracks seen in those other marriages. Thus, the V-5 and V-9 must have used a similar but different obverse than V-2, V-3, and V-4.
Edited to add: Note also in the V-9 reverse the crack at UNIT tops and in places in the denticles.
V-9
1848-O Large O Reverse Dies:
V-1 reverse
V-3 reverse
V-6 reverse
V-7 reverse (same as that of V-3)
A couple 1848-O Obverse Dies for comparison:
V-4 Obverse - no die line in drapery
V-5 Obverse (Crain #1724) - die line in drapery
Hey Clint, please don't tell me that you and/or Frank already knew about this... 
- Alan
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Comments
Wow, Alan - great find!
I will search my photo collection for more examples.
And time to update the guide!
Wow, those cracks in the denticles are awesome. Have you checked other known reverses that might have carried over? Very cool!
Seated Dollar Collection
I checked my photos of Frank's 1848-O half dimes that I had attributed to V-3.
I found 3 examples of your new V-9, so this is great confirmation of the new die pair.
VF-30
VF-25
G-5
I also confirmed that the V-5s in sufficiently high grade all exhibit the obverse die line right of the pole which you found.
There are other half dimes with die cracks in the denticles, sometimes clearly starting/ending toward the edge, sometimes not. Most are less extensive than in the 1848-O V-9 reverse. But while we're in a 48-O thread, here's the V-8 with a Medium O reverse with cracks in the denticles over TED and ES. Part of the former becomes a cud in a V-2 re-marriage. (@yosclimber, have I shown you this?)
V-8, NGC AU Details
V-2 re-marriage, PCGS VF 30
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Your V-8 is quite nice with all those visible cracks.
Two things I failed to include in my photos of the V-8 cracks in the guide are:
1. RI joined at base. Visible in your V-8 and V-2.
2. Heavy vertical die break in center leaf between DIME and ER. This is not prominent in your V-8 photo, probably because of the particular lighting angle. Below is one of Frank's MS-63 V-8s that shows it quite well.
This die break might be present in your V-2, but with the wear, it's hard to be sure.
The photo does not rule it out.
Yes, you have shared your V-2 remarriage with me before (July 25, 2024).
It is quite a special coin. I have not been able to find a second example with the dentil cud above T1E1.
In 2018 somebody (I don't recall who) thought the Blythe AU-53 details ANACS 4049129
was a second example with the dentil cud. But now I know the terminal die state has to have the RI joined at base,
which the Blythe coin does not have.
I wrote on my "To Do" list for 1848-O to add die states for V-2 and V-8.
But to do that accurately, I need to understand the die state progression of this reverse.
The current version seems to be wrong, where for V-8 I wrote "LDS crack TES tops".
This was a lazy way of saying I see this crack on some coins but not others,
without actually being sure of the die state progression.
Looking now, I can see this crack at top of TES in 2 of Crain's high grade V-2s.
Crain #969 V-2 MDS AU-50
Crain #637 V-2 LDS EF-45
Originally I thought there should be:
V-2 with no rev cracks
V-2a with crack at E3
V-2b with dentil cud above T1E1
but since there is only one known V-2b I'm not sure it should be done that way.
And to call V-2b a remarriage would require knowing the die state progression
and at what point the remarriage(s?) occurred.
With very few high grade coins available, this may not be possible to determine.
Similarly there are V-5A and V-5B defined by cracks in the dentils but only visible on 2 high grade coins.
They could be added, but are not very "collectible".
My magic number seems to be "2" to have a die state be collectible, and be more confident it is a die
feature we are seeing, and not some unusual post mint damage. I don't think your V-2b is PMD,
but if there was a second example that would make it easier to be confident.
Hey @yosclimber - A few things...
1) typo in a label above: Two coins pictured, headed indicating both are V-2, but second one is labelled V-3.
2) Yeah, I agree the V-2,V-8 reverse die sequence is uncertain. All of my examples show all the cracks, at least as far as I can discern in lower grade examples. But if the Blythe coin clearly does not have RI joined, then it must come before V-8. Above, you also say you thought there is a no-crack state of V-2. Do you have coins/photos of such examples?
3) I was looking at my library of CoinFacts/TV photos. The Simpson MS68 is a puzzle. It has the date slightly right and rim cuds at the top of the obverse (V-4 LDS, V-3), and a large O low and right (like the V-3 & V-7 reverse). But it does not have the lump on the mint mark, and appears less rusty. Maybe it's an earlier state of V-3. Picture below.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
and mine as well, merry xmas
Nice V-3 with the rim cuds.
@epc wrote;
I checked and almost all of them have very small cracks in most locations visible in high grades like AU and above.
This includes some with the RPD visible.
Here is Frank's V-2 EDS EF-40 which does not seem to have any cracks, and it has the RPD visible.
But it is an EF-40 so the surfaces are not as nice as AU and above.
Here is Frank's V-2 VLDS MS-62 with RI bases joined and cracks in the dentil cud area above T1E1.
It does not seem to have the vertical die break in the leaf between DIME and ER.
How often do v-3's have rim cuds?
Steve would have loved this thread.
@yosclimber wrote:
So it seems the V-2 EDS with separated RI must be before V-8, and V-2b with cud (assuming it's real) must be after. But we don't seem to have enough high grade examples to define the transition from 2 to 8 and back to 2. If we could be convinced that the cud is not real, then we don't necessarily have a remarriage at all.
@RobertScotLover wrote:
My notes indicate that I thought there are states of the V-3 with and without the cuds. Certainly there is a progression, But my note indicating a state without cuds is referring to my lone example, which clearly does have some. So much for my earlier observations... But I have seen one TV example that seems to be without. But it's an XF45 example and could be worn enough to obscure them.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Here is the updated 1848-O die pair table.
I added V-9, sharing Obverse 4 with V-5.
I also added some die states for V-2 and V-8.
Some rows and columns were moved to make it more diagonal.
Many Obv and Rev dies were renamed to match the new row/column order.
One thing I added which we did not discuss above was to add an Obv die state for V-1 and V-8 -
Stars Outlined or Not Outlined.
I am not a half dime collector, but I do have to say yall have AWESOME photos
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
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