@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
To exclude a seller from your search - to the right of the search button, hit the advanced link.
It gives you many options, towards the bottom is sellers
change the Include to Exclude and then enter all of your non-favorites
luckily all of my (skip these sellers) have a watermark or distinctive background so I know to not even bother looking
You made my Christmas with this gift of knowledge... Thank you!
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
You have to go to advances search, scroll down until you see "Sellers" and fill in that section before searching:
I don’t see anything inherently wrong with cracking out a details coin and selling it raw on any venue. If it is likely to sell for a higher price raw then why not?
What I do think is wrong is to misrepresent it in any way, whether through “juiced” photos or over the top descriptions like “Gem BU+” that would imply a problem free grade. Or laying on BS about it being from a “original roll”. Just take an accurate photo and let that speak for itself.
I would never buy a high value raw coin and assume it had never been in a grading room. That’s just dumb IMO. It’s raw for a reason.
@yspsales said:
Who buys a raw $600 coin... much less a $6k coin?
I had a negative once. Ebay will let you challenge. Mine stayed negative, then it fell off somehow months down the road when I was selling alot.
People who know what they're doing. I've heard of $100k coins selling raw - but not necessarily for $100k.
In the context of this thread - I don't necessarily see anything particularly wrong with what they are doing, provided they believe there is a chance the coin could straight grade, or is in their opinion what they list it for. I don't know if there's an intent to deceive. Submit a PCGS Details coin 100 times, and it might come back straight graded one or two, or thirty, or 99 times. No one knows until you try it X amount of times. The seller is hedging that bet. You don't have to buy the coin or bid on it.
I recall a thread not too long ago of someone ripping this exact seller, and made something like 200% profit on a Proof they called MS. What about that 1916 cent PCGS called MS Details that was a Proof that was a thread here a couple days ago?
Really what it comes down to is this - do you know what the risk you are making is?
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
@yspsales said:
Who buys a raw $600 coin... much less a $6k coin?
I had a negative once. Ebay will let you challenge. Mine stayed negative, then it fell off somehow months down the road when I was selling alot.
I wonder if some Crypto Money finds its way into coins like these? Imaginary to tangible investment maneuvers? The pain will come with the selling but easy come, easier going?
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
That's where the ethical line is drawn.
+1, I'd say that about sums it up for me. Plenty of forum members buy details coins to crack out for albums, and many of those ultimately will trade raw next time. many of us enjoy handling the coin outside of the plastic, and you can take better pictures of it. I draw the line when the seller assigns their own grade (GEM BU ++++) or juices their pictures to hide flaws. If asked whether it will grade, just be transparent about any hairlines, ring dims, etc.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
There is more to this listing than simply cracking the coin out. You're ignoring the made up back story and edited photos.
I'm fairly new to collecting but even I knew almost right away that Denver Coin Co was up to no good. It's ridiculous to try to make people think that you just happen to come across all these coins in raw form. The way they use filters and edit their photos to make the coins look better is so scummy.
@Connecticoin said:
That seller uses mega-juiced photos as well. There are about 4 or 5 sellers that do this big time and they pollute my ebay searches unless I exclude them.
I wish eBay made it as easy to block a seller as it is to block a buyer. I wish to permanently block these sellers from all my searches. How do you exclude these sellers from your searches?
Click “Advanced” near the ebay search bar, then scroll down to the section where you can toggle “exclude” and then list all the sellers you want to exclude from your search.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
The "hidden problem" problem is handled by the buyer easily by claiming the coin is not as described. That the photos were misleading to hide ___ and ___. There's no need for regulations for sellers here the way eBay is designed in favor of the buyer.
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
I don't "like it", but there's no way to enforce it. 99% of cracks outs are unlikely to even be easily identifiable as being the same coin.
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
I think "impossible" more than difficult. EBay allows all buyers to SNAD any item with no proof required. There is no way for anyone to be able to even identify undisclosed issues for 99% of listings. The coin under discussion here would not even be flagged if it had not been noticed as having been in a slab before. The toning is not obviously artificial.
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
@ebaybuyer2 said:
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
If it is so easy, why has the seller not gone this route.
Obvious shill bidding.
Glad to know I can block him.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
@skier07 said:
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
I think "impossible" more than difficult. EBay allows all buyers to SNAD any item with no proof required. There is no way for anyone to be able to even identify undisclosed issues for 99% of listings. The coin under discussion here would not even be flagged if it had not been noticed as having been in a slab before. The toning is not obviously artificial.
Also, most of these type of sellers have free returns, so anyone who knows how to grade will return the coins and not get ripped off. They will just continually rip off those who do not know how to grade until they learn to grade or find out from someone else they are getting ripped off.
@4Redisin said:
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
@4Redisin said:
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
YMMV
Your experience beats my hearsay from others. You have a very good record for returns. I guess I just hear 1 horror story from 25 people and it seems like Ebay is a bad place to sell stuff.
What does YMMV stand for?
YMMV = your mileage may vary
My ebay experience is similar. Two decades and few issues. Most come from mistakes of my own doing.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Seen some in dealer junk boxes, cases at shows - generally coins less than $200. Or could be gold type close to melt (failed non details grading) Just depends on that players strategy. One guy titles his “Estate Finds.”
Could been something they submitted, unhappy result, cracked out, sold raw for the album crowd. Or the 3rd team players picked up next to nothin from estate. Some them just put zero for problem stuff in Estate Offer Calc excel sheet. Then to junk box they go. Or the snooker part of their display case. Lots of it cleaned stuff, ugly toning, buffed, holes, prints, AG or less, salty looking (salt air exposure).
@4Redisin said:
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
YMMV
Your experience beats my hearsay from others. You have a very good record for returns. I guess I just hear 1 horror story from 25 people and it seems like Ebay is a bad place to sell stuff.
What does YMMV stand for?
YMMV = your mileage may vary
My ebay experience is similar. Two decades and few issues. Most come from mistakes of my own doing.
Yup. My most expensive eBay problem was of my own doing. I sent the wrong set to someone because I lost the right one and didn't realize it. As way of apology, I let him keep the $125 set for free.
I once heard an old Indian tale of a well funded syndicate of eBay buyers , who turned out be a a serious inconvenience for a problem seller. Evidently, they had plenty of accounts in good standing , and they would continually purchase all the auction coins from a predatory seller who insisted on taking advantage of people by cracking out deets coins.
They’d buy on a credit card, wait a few days and return the item for a full refund, using SNAD if necessary, or using an option that puts it on the seller. Paid with Cc anyway just in case. Seller keeps getting clipped for shipping and other miscellaneous fees , their cash flow stalled immensely and when they finally decide to surrender, > @4Redisin said:
@4Redisin said:
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
YMMV
Your experience beats my hearsay from others. You have a very good record for returns. I guess I just hear 1 horror story from 25 people and it seems like Ebay is a bad place to sell stuff.
What does YMMV stand for?
Average cost of items sold is something people often dont take into consideration. I dont sell a lot on eBay, most are smart enough to make it to my website. Out of a handful of eBay transactions (4 lol), 2 of them were retuned. Both were ms 64 cac double eagles with nice true views and exceptional photos. Reason was "changed my mind" for one, and the other "coin has scratches" (a couple slide marks, hairlines as it is a gold coin lol. If anyone doubts this, please go ahead and ask me for the pictures and descriptions.
JmLanzaf doesn't like to point out that he is the exception and not the rule, but I dont think he sells a high volume of expensive coins where buyers are more likely to experience buyers remorse, or try to pull a fast one with the "box showed up empty" trick. For this reason, I pack and unpack all my coins on video recordings.
Many around the country are experiencing hard times and they will try to take advantage of sellers on eBay if they get away with it. Sure we have insurance as aquatic protection, but see how long your insurance company keeps you after a claim or two.
@PeakRarities said:
I once heard an old Indian tale of a well funded syndicate of eBay buyers , who turned out be a a serious inconvenience for a problem seller. Evidently, they had plenty of accounts in good standing , and they would continually purchase all the auction coins from a predatory seller who insisted on taking advantage of people by cracking out deets coins.
They’d buy on a credit card, wait a few days and return the item for a full refund, using SNAD if necessary, or using an option that puts it on the seller. Paid with Cc anyway just in case. Seller keeps getting clipped for shipping and other miscellaneous fees , their cash flow stalled immensely and when they finally decide to surrender, > @4Redisin said:
@4Redisin said:
I've heard stories of buyers claiming they never got the goods. There is no protection for that. Have any of your sales been returned when they were perfectly legit?
@4Redisin said:
From what I'm reading, Ebay is a lot like it was before grading services - except a buyer can return a coin for any reason and know the dealer will still be around. That's why my boss does not use Ebay.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
YMMV
Your experience beats my hearsay from others. You have a very good record for returns. I guess I just hear 1 horror story from 25 people and it seems like Ebay is a bad place to sell stuff.
What does YMMV stand for?
Average cost of items sold is something people often dont take into consideration. I dont sell a lot on eBay, most are smart enough to make it to my website. Out of a handful of eBay transactions (4 lol), 2 of them were retuned. Both were ms 64 cac double eagles with nice true views and exceptional photos. Reason was "changed my mind" for one, and the other "coin has scratches" (a couple slide marks, hairlines as it is a gold coin lol. If anyone doubts this, please go ahead and ask me for the pictures and descriptions.
JmLanzaf doesn't like to point out that he is the exception and not the rule, but I dont think he sells a high volume of expensive coins where buyers are more likely to experience buyers remorse, or try to pull a fast one with the "box showed up empty" trick. For this reason, I pack and unpack all my coins on video recordings.
Many around the country are experiencing hard times and they will try to take advantage of sellers on eBay if they get away with it. Sure we have insurance as aquatic protection, but see how long your insurance company keeps you after a claim or two.
I don't think I'm the exception. One other person in this thread related identical experiences to mine. Every one i know gets some returns and/or claims of damage but they are not a high percentage.
Yes, the majority of my sales are not 4 and 5 figure coins. But in absolute numbers, I've sold more than 4. Lol. I sell maybe a dozen 4 or 5 figure coins per year. I did have one very annoying return. I also had the empty box that I mentioned, but that was 20 years ago.
YMMV
By the way, how would you prevent the same thing from happening on your website? Do you only accept wire transfers?
I agree with @jmlanzaf. I don't sell very many $1000+ coins, but it's been my experience that my problem buyers are for the lower dollar items. I get more messages, questions about packaging and asking for more photos etc from people looking at coins under $20 that I ever do for more expensive coins. This year I sold around 400 items on ebay. I've had 4 returns. Two for the same $90 coin with a chipped slab that was disclosed in title, photos and description. I've had to file 2 claims for lost ebay standard envelope deliveries for items under $20, and had one person tell me the slab was damaged and asked for a partial refund. When I told them to return for a refund they decided to keep the coin.
I could see where your experience would be different because of the type of Items you sell. But as far as scams go, $3000 is a lot of money for an ebay fraudster to spend to try and scam you. Likely they were just picky buyers, or people who bought something they didn't understand(CAC) and when they found out they could get it cheaper(non CAC) they made up an excuse to get a refund.
Edited to add.
Even though I prefer to have buyers on my website than on ebay, I'm usually more worried about higher value purchases from my website. I'd rather let ebay seller protections kick in when there is a problem than have to deal with the chargeback or whatever.
Comments
You made my Christmas with this gift of knowledge... Thank you!
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Yes if players see an opening will crack them out (details holders) then sell raw, buyer beware. Learn how to grade and look at coins.
You have to go to advances search, scroll down until you see "Sellers" and fill in that section before searching:
Dip I'm all I say. Nothing worse than seeing the nasty on a coin that should be blast white. RGDS!.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
Wooooha! Did someone just say it's officially "TACO™" Tuesday????
I don’t see anything inherently wrong with cracking out a details coin and selling it raw on any venue. If it is likely to sell for a higher price raw then why not?
What I do think is wrong is to misrepresent it in any way, whether through “juiced” photos or over the top descriptions like “Gem BU+” that would imply a problem free grade. Or laying on BS about it being from a “original roll”. Just take an accurate photo and let that speak for itself.
I would never buy a high value raw coin and assume it had never been in a grading room. That’s just dumb IMO. It’s raw for a reason.
interesting .... now what will the chatter be if that same coin lands in a straight grade holder ?
Up to $51.00 as of this post.
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I do. Not $6K coins though.
People who know what they're doing. I've heard of $100k coins selling raw - but not necessarily for $100k.
In the context of this thread - I don't necessarily see anything particularly wrong with what they are doing, provided they believe there is a chance the coin could straight grade, or is in their opinion what they list it for. I don't know if there's an intent to deceive. Submit a PCGS Details coin 100 times, and it might come back straight graded one or two, or thirty, or 99 times. No one knows until you try it X amount of times. The seller is hedging that bet. You don't have to buy the coin or bid on it.
I recall a thread not too long ago of someone ripping this exact seller, and made something like 200% profit on a Proof they called MS. What about that 1916 cent PCGS called MS Details that was a Proof that was a thread here a couple days ago?
Really what it comes down to is this - do you know what the risk you are making is?
Cool. Another eBay seller bashing thread. At least the coins are genuine.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It’s unethical and dishonest buying detail coins, cracking them out, and selling them raw as problem free coins and promoting them as beautiful speculator coins. IMHO there is no way to justify this type of behavior. To each their own
I wonder if some Crypto Money finds its way into coins like these? Imaginary to tangible investment maneuvers? The pain will come with the selling but easy come, easier going?
Where do you draw the line of ethics?
What if the coin in question was cracked, dipped, and regradrd as a top pop and resold for 5 figures?
It doesn't look like the coin was messed with at all. Just being sold with a different opinion than pcgs.
Not only that, it's in auction format.
Seems like a lot of different opinions on what's ethical and what is not...Are the fees grading services charge for what amounts to an opinion ethical? Answer is, it doesn't matter because we still pay the fees.
Over $300 right now.
Fair enough question.
If most of the EBay sellers inventory is over promoted raw coins that were cracked out at least from my perspective the answer is pretty obvious.
I do.
I love buying raw, no matter what the price and have done very well (solid expertise with Canadian coins and ICCS).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I understand your position.
You paid your tuition and every coin is an opportunity.
For most this is not the case.
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I think, to supplement your answer, you left something out. Sure, there can be differences of opinion in grade and quality but if one is intentionally misrepresenting the coin and/or hiding defects, it's very shady. And that is this seller's business model.
That's where the ethical line is drawn.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
+1, I'd say that about sums it up for me. Plenty of forum members buy details coins to crack out for albums, and many of those ultimately will trade raw next time. many of us enjoy handling the coin outside of the plastic, and you can take better pictures of it. I draw the line when the seller assigns their own grade (GEM BU ++++) or juices their pictures to hide flaws. If asked whether it will grade, just be transparent about any hairlines, ring dims, etc.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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There is more to this listing than simply cracking the coin out. You're ignoring the made up back story and edited photos.
https://www.ebay.com/str/canyoncitycoin?_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l170197
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm fairly new to collecting but even I knew almost right away that Denver Coin Co was up to no good. It's ridiculous to try to make people think that you just happen to come across all these coins in raw form. The way they use filters and edit their photos to make the coins look better is so scummy.
$300 and counting
Denver Coin has 106 coins for sale now. Six are certified with fixed prices. The remaining are over hyped crack outs in an auction format.
Click “Advanced” near the ebay search bar, then scroll down to the section where you can toggle “exclude” and then list all the sellers you want to exclude from your search.
Totally agree. Just because ebay permits this “business model”, it is still unethical IMO. And, IMO any problem raw coins should have the problems clearly disclosed in listing and, if possible, shown in the photos.
You don't want eBay to allow raw coin sales??? Because I'm not sure what else eBay is doing to "permit" this business model.
No, that is not what I meant. Perhaps Ebay could require sellers to properly disclose problems on raw coins, but it would be difficult to enforce.
Jmlanzaf, maybe I am misreading your posts but to me there is a huge difference between 1) your selling raw coins with an accurate description and 2) a factory that buys up a lot of details coins with clear flaws that will never straight grade, describe them as Gem BU +++ and crank up the glare in their photos.
I have no easy solution for stopping this business model that skirts the edges of what is legal and ethical, but I don’t have to like it. Too many rookie buyers feel burned, get a bad taste in their mouths and leave the hobby for good.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Patience. It's likely coming.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
The "hidden problem" problem is handled by the buyer easily by claiming the coin is not as described. That the photos were misleading to hide ___ and ___. There's no need for regulations for sellers here the way eBay is designed in favor of the buyer.
i believe its important to remind ourselves... grading is an opinion .... not a science. todays A/T cleaned will be tomorrows straight grade ... ask anyone who has resubbed rejected coins
I don't "like it", but there's no way to enforce it. 99% of cracks outs are unlikely to even be easily identifiable as being the same coin.
I think "impossible" more than difficult. EBay allows all buyers to SNAD any item with no proof required. There is no way for anyone to be able to even identify undisclosed issues for 99% of listings. The coin under discussion here would not even be flagged if it had not been noticed as having been in a slab before. The toning is not obviously artificial.
Ebay provides a very safe venue for sales due to all the built in protections. Their fees are modest, especially when you consider the value of those protections. I'm a nobody but I can sell 5 figure coins and comics on eBay because of those protections. I can also sell $5 coins on eBay because of the low fees and the ebay standard shipping.
Smart buyer... stupid buyer
The shill taxes you all.
If it is so easy, why has the seller not gone this route.
Obvious shill bidding.
Glad to know I can block him.
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Also, most of these type of sellers have free returns, so anyone who knows how to grade will return the coins and not get ripped off. They will just continually rip off those who do not know how to grade until they learn to grade or find out from someone else they are getting ripped off.
Ended at 301.09:
Good return based on the 36 + 3 shipping original result:
True. A story as old as time itself.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I sell 2000 items per year on eBay and have done over 100,000 sales around the globe. Only once did anyone claim to get an empty package and USPS. Paid the insurance claim. So, contrary to your assertion, there is protection for empty packages.
As for returns, i get 4 or 5 per year. They are almost always for silly reasons like "changed mind" or "found a better price". It is the cost of doing business.
ANYONE who buys a coin in any way other than cash can always file a charge back. So if you sell a coin on FB or IG and take PayPal, you can have a return, claim of empty packages or anything else. You can only sell coins for cash. That will restrict your sales far more than the occasional return will cost you. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes.
I know dealers who refuse to use ebay. You know what they do? They sell stuff to me and I make money on eBay. So, they are costing themselves money, though they may be adding aggravation.
YMMV
YMMV = your mileage may vary
My ebay experience is similar. Two decades and few issues. Most come from mistakes of my own doing.
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i saw one there that has a big ole finger print on it, yuck
Seen some in dealer junk boxes, cases at shows - generally coins less than $200. Or could be gold type close to melt (failed non details grading) Just depends on that players strategy. One guy titles his “Estate Finds.”
Could been something they submitted, unhappy result, cracked out, sold raw for the album crowd. Or the 3rd team players picked up next to nothin from estate. Some them just put zero for problem stuff in Estate Offer Calc excel sheet. Then to junk box they go. Or the snooker part of their display case. Lots of it cleaned stuff, ugly toning, buffed, holes, prints, AG or less, salty looking (salt air exposure).
did you guys see the warranty?
Yup. My most expensive eBay problem was of my own doing. I sent the wrong set to someone because I lost the right one and didn't realize it. As way of apology, I let him keep the $125 set for free.
Denver Coins always seems to have a ton of " From Original Collection" coins for sale
Should have added 2 more + to really bring in the money.
I once heard an old Indian tale of a well funded syndicate of eBay buyers , who turned out be a a serious inconvenience for a problem seller. Evidently, they had plenty of accounts in good standing , and they would continually purchase all the auction coins from a predatory seller who insisted on taking advantage of people by cracking out deets coins.
They’d buy on a credit card, wait a few days and return the item for a full refund, using SNAD if necessary, or using an option that puts it on the seller. Paid with Cc anyway just in case. Seller keeps getting clipped for shipping and other miscellaneous fees , their cash flow stalled immensely and when they finally decide to surrender, > @4Redisin said:
Average cost of items sold is something people often dont take into consideration. I dont sell a lot on eBay, most are smart enough to make it to my website. Out of a handful of eBay transactions (4 lol), 2 of them were retuned. Both were ms 64 cac double eagles with nice true views and exceptional photos. Reason was "changed my mind" for one, and the other "coin has scratches" (a couple slide marks, hairlines as it is a gold coin lol. If anyone doubts this, please go ahead and ask me for the pictures and descriptions.
JmLanzaf doesn't like to point out that he is the exception and not the rule, but I dont think he sells a high volume of expensive coins where buyers are more likely to experience buyers remorse, or try to pull a fast one with the "box showed up empty" trick. For this reason, I pack and unpack all my coins on video recordings.
Many around the country are experiencing hard times and they will try to take advantage of sellers on eBay if they get away with it. Sure we have insurance as aquatic protection, but see how long your insurance company keeps you after a claim or two.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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I don't think I'm the exception. One other person in this thread related identical experiences to mine. Every one i know gets some returns and/or claims of damage but they are not a high percentage.
Yes, the majority of my sales are not 4 and 5 figure coins. But in absolute numbers, I've sold more than 4. Lol. I sell maybe a dozen 4 or 5 figure coins per year. I did have one very annoying return. I also had the empty box that I mentioned, but that was 20 years ago.
YMMV
By the way, how would you prevent the same thing from happening on your website? Do you only accept wire transfers?
I agree with @jmlanzaf. I don't sell very many $1000+ coins, but it's been my experience that my problem buyers are for the lower dollar items. I get more messages, questions about packaging and asking for more photos etc from people looking at coins under $20 that I ever do for more expensive coins. This year I sold around 400 items on ebay. I've had 4 returns. Two for the same $90 coin with a chipped slab that was disclosed in title, photos and description. I've had to file 2 claims for lost ebay standard envelope deliveries for items under $20, and had one person tell me the slab was damaged and asked for a partial refund. When I told them to return for a refund they decided to keep the coin.
I could see where your experience would be different because of the type of Items you sell. But as far as scams go, $3000 is a lot of money for an ebay fraudster to spend to try and scam you. Likely they were just picky buyers, or people who bought something they didn't understand(CAC) and when they found out they could get it cheaper(non CAC) they made up an excuse to get a refund.
Edited to add.
Even though I prefer to have buyers on my website than on ebay, I'm usually more worried about higher value purchases from my website. I'd rather let ebay seller protections kick in when there is a problem than have to deal with the chargeback or whatever.
My Ebay Store
It was in the Denver Coins “original collection” for 1 week. 🤪