Great Collections Listing error - Judd -456 Indian Cent Pattern
redraider
Posts: 194 ✭✭✭✭
I believe this coin to be an 1860 with a damaged date, not the J-456 Pattern (1866 Copper-Nickel). This coin clearly has a rounded bust, which was used in 1860. By 1866, all Indian Head Cents and Indian Head Cent patterns had a Pointed Bust. Do you agree with this assessment? Probably need to let Ian know so he can remove/revise this listing. If my assessment is right, this coin needs to be cracked out too as to not deceive any future buyer.
Here is the listing
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1676498/Pattern-1866-1c-J-456-NGC-VF-Details-from-photo
Here is my example. Note the pointed bust.
12
Comments
I guess this is technically an NGC error, not GC. GC is just the selling party.
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Cool post @redraider ! I see PCGS shows both proof and MS versions; are there notable differences between the two?
NGC shows this image for the proof:
I added an image of the NGC coin from their site:
Date position is off as well...
OP: Yep
Good idea to let Ian know. I don't see an "L" on the ribbon, either.
Yep….you beat me to that point. Definitely not an 1866
Nice catch Jonathan - 100% correct!
Ken
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I discovered an error with a PCGS slab a few months back. Let customer service at GC know via email. They reviewed my notes, double checked, agreed, and made the appropriate notes to the listing in short order. They were very receptive. I guess every so often something’s gonna slip through….
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Cool catch on the "L" as well...
@ianrussell FYI and your action.
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
.... and GC writes what is on the TPG label for listing title with no individual descriptions
I'm sure they look at what they are selling. Several years ago, they sold a few of my US gold coins and they discovered that a quarter eagle was mislabeled as being MS when it was actually a proof.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks - we're reviewing this when the sun rises here in California.
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It appears this auction was rightfully removed. Thank you @ianrussell! Your integrity, speed, and actions are why I buy more from Greatcollections than any other auction site!
Makes me wonder why someone would submit a cull $2 coin with none of the right attributes, and then NGC fails to perform due diligence and gives it the pattern designation…..
I bet the collector submitted it as a 66 and NGC just processed it. You can make some odd ball rarities esp varieties if you just pick the right Cert #.
They put their rigor on the grade and composition verification which both check out mind you. The date was close enough that they didn’t go full on hub analysis. Should they have, sure but PCGS has similar slips.
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Maybe a dumb question but wouldn’t the 1860 be a “fatty” and the 1866 be the reduced size one? The thickness of it should have been an instant giveaway no? Not my series so maybe a dumb question.
@pcgs69 i believe that the generation of the holder is based upon time frame and not series. If I am reading your question correctly.
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I think he means the coin itself, a thick copper nickel planchet for 1860, and a thin bronze planchet for 1866. But I have no idea what planchet was used for the real patterns struck in 1860. Since thinner bronze planchets weren’t used until mid-1864, I suspect the patterns in 1860 were on thick planchets.
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No, not for me
That's what I was thinking... but since this was supposed to be an 1866 pattern (based on the label), then it should be the thin planchet? Unless, NGC is saying the 1866 pattern was on the original, thick planchet, as 1860?
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Here’s a description for a Judd-456 that Heritage auctioned - note the comments about the planchet:
“1866 1C One Cent, Judd-456, Pollock-530, Low R.7, PR65 PCGS. Ex: Benson. Eagle Eye Photo Seal. Regular Indian cent die trials issue. Struck in copper-nickel with a plain edge. This is apparently a thin planchet variant. This pattern issue is not without controversy. USPatterns.com believes they were struck on leftover copper-nickel planchets from regular coinage from 1857-1864. The problem with this, however, is the thin planchet seen on this coin. Regular issue copper-nickel cents were struck on thick planchets. Mottled olive-gold patina has a muting effect on the proof finish and the high points of the design are softly defined on the obverse.
Ex: Long Beach Signature (Heritage, 6/2005), lot 7384; Denver Signature (Heritage, 8/2006), lot 1439.”
Link to listing:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/patterns/1866-1c-one-cent-judd-456-pollock-530-low-r7-pr65-pcgs-pcgs-60651-/a/1258-5400.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mine is a thick planchet, looks just like the CN other dates, just dated 1866.
So it sounds like both thin and thick planchets were used to strike pattern cents in 1866….
I believe this is correct. There are a few other patterns in the CN series that used thin CN planchets. I have a few from 1864 and not certain, but I believe there were some from 1865 as well.
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Item has been relisted:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1676498/Pattern-1866-1c-J-456-NGC-VF-Details
Was that intentional or a mistake due to automation?
The Simpson J-456 is on a thick planchet and designated as MS. Because it has satiny PL-ish surfaces unlike regular business strikes, and a giant lint mark on the reverse, I'm confident that it's not an error struck on a leftover planchet. It could be an intentional "error" struck from specially prepared dies, or it could have served some more legitimate purpose. And in the context of similar types of things of various denominations struck between 1864 and 1867, it's not surprising that it exists.
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I would really want to see that Simpson example in person. The reverse looks like it has solid proof strike properties to a certain extent. In Rick Snows guide, he only has one example of an MS example being traced (other than the Simpson example). There is a chance that all of these were struck as PF, some better than others.
Also of note in the description in the attribution guide is most of these examples are on a thin planchet.
Could be. Then again, at least most of the other off-metal 1866 regular dies trial pieces are in unquestionable MS format, from business strike dies. And the same is true of other 1863-66 off metal pieces. And at least most of the original (not restrike) experimental small cents of 1850 to 1864 are probably best described as MS, not PR, even if that has traditionally not been the way we describe them.
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Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Interesting; my contact told me NGC had requested it back to them.
That seems like the logical move, which is why I wondered if the relisting was a mistake. Some platforms automatically relist unsold items, so perhaps the automation took over in this case.
@ianrussell
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Let’s see….in 1866 the Mint had thin 75/25 copper-nickel stock for the three cents pieces and thick 75/25 copper-nickel stock for the five cents pieces. I doubt it had any 88/12 copper-nickel stock left over from the white cents, but I would not rule it out.
Geez....2 bidders must really want this 1 dollar coin! Im really surprised to see this still up at this point.
Just hit $775.00...
Now at $875
Looks like a perfect opportunity to continue our discussion of this coin so that all may be further educated. There is still additional information to be mined from the coin, and I think folks will find it interesting, as well.
When a hub is redesigned, we tend to latch on to one or two of the more obvious changes (such as the rounded bust vs. pointed bust and "No L" vs. "L", as previously discussed); however, a careful examination will often reveal other differences that are useful in cases of mistaken ID, such as this one.
An 1866 Indian cent (whether a pattern, proof, or business strike) has crenulated (wavy) margins on the feathers of the headdress, particularly on the 1st and 2nd feathers. This is readily apparent even on VF examples:
1866 1c PCGS MS65
1866 1c PCGS VF25
.
.
In contrast, the "No L" cents from 1859 to 1864 do not have the same crenulations on the feathers; the feather margins are smooth:
1860 1c PCGS MS66 (Rounded Bust)
OP Coin NGC VF Details
Once again, the OP coin clearly cannot be dated 1866, as its obverse design predates that year. From what we can see of the date (as previously discussed), a damaged 1860 is the most reasonable choice. People have been polite and courteous in their assessments, but politeness should not be mistaken for uncertainty.
The pattern does appear to have fairly smooth feather edges.
Absolutely not. The crenulations are perfectly clear, even on that photo.
But they are not as pronounced as on the circulation strike you show.
You chose a blurry, low-resolution photo, Professor.
While on the subject of the headdress, let's take a look at the band. On an 1866 cent, the borders of the band project out farther into the field than the rest of the band (in other words, the middle of the band is recessed). In contrast, on the "No L" cents from 1859 to 1864, the borders do not project out, and the middle of the band is slightly convex (bulges slightly outward) and sticks out farthest. Once again, the OP coin is not a match for the 1866, but does match the older design.
1866 1c PCGS MS65 - note the projecting borders:
1866 1c PCGS VF25 - Wear or a well-placed hit may remove the upper (weaker) border, but that still leaves the lower one:
1860 1c PCGS MS66 (Rounded Bust) - note the bulging middle of the band:
OP Coin NGC VF Details - note the bulging middle of the band:
I chose the only photo I had. I'm just not sure what to think given the even worse condition/photo of the GC coin.
I simply can't be definitive. You can LOL all you want. It's your core competency.
I'm surprised Ian hasn't followed up. Although i do notethat the listing is gone again. .
Thanks, I appreciate that information.
It went "hot" just before removed...