PCGS encapsulation a rip off ?

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Tuck70
Tuck70 Posts: 13 ✭✭
edited September 3, 2024 9:28AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I sent in four coins - 1-2023 reverse morgan, 2- 2023 reverse peace, 3- 2023 morgan proof and 4- 2023 peace proof. I've been a skeptic for awhile now but know i'm convinced. I'm not a dealer and have not sent alot of coins to pcgs but i have collected coins for some time now , have a pretty nice collection of morgans (all graded and slabbed) and other coins that i've been interested in and i have a good amount of bullion. I was EXTREMELY careful, left them in the plastic holders, I literally took them out of the box from the mint and put them directly in the box i was shipping to pcgs. They came back (45 days) PR68, PR69, PR69DC and another PR69DC, I'm telling you there is no way especially when i saw the PR68. The game is rigged, if I was a dealer or well known i bet you they all would have been PR70's, Thats it for me - i'm sticking with gold and silver bullion

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Comments

  • yosclimber
    yosclimber Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2024 11:44AM
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    Just because you did not touch the coins does not mean they should be graded PR70.
    There might be minor surface defects on the coins which prevent them from being graded PR70.

    That said, I do not participate in this slabbing process, either. I'm happy with my coins the way I bought them.

  • logger7
    logger7 Posts: 9,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    You could try one of the second tier services if you are new to submitting, less money and probably stress.

  • MFeld
    MFeld Posts: 17,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @logger7 said:
    You could try one of the second tier services if you are new to submitting, less money and probably stress.

    That wouldn’t address the issue he raised, based on his apparent belief that he should have received some 70’s.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • BAJJERFAN
    BAJJERFAN Posts: 31,662 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Remember too that proof is a method of manufacture and not a measure of quality. I don't think that your title is necessarily out of line, but like they say: be sure your brain is running before you put your mouth in gear!

    theknowitalltroll;
  • TomB
    TomB Posts: 23,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    There it is. That's all the proof anybody needs!

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • lkenefic
    lkenefic Posts: 9,518 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Don't you look at the coins before sending them in? If getting 70's was that easy, I think more people would have caught on by now...

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
  • VanHalen
    VanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I've submitted moderns (as a collector) to PCGS a few times. It's always a crapshoot but I have about 1/3 of 70s out of it. If you get three out of 10 70s on a modern submission you're doing really well. With your submission odds are you would have had one but it came up short this time. Sorry to hear about your bad luck.

  • DocBenjamin
    DocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

  • JBK
    JBK Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

  • DocBenjamin
    DocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 30, 2024 2:09PM
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    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

  • RobertScotLover
    RobertScotLover Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Obviously not a dealer, obviously not a learned collector either

  • SanctionII
    SanctionII Posts: 13,189 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    When you submit a coin for grading you pay money to obtain an opinion. That opinion likely will be different from your opinion.

    If you are not happy with the opinion you paid for, well that is how it goes.

    If you want to eliminate not being happy with the opinion you paid for you can do so by purchasing coins that have already been graded that received the grade you desire (but then when you see the actual coin you may opine that it is not graded accurately; in which case you could simply not collect graded coins at all).

  • Smudge
    Smudge Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Coins like that are held to an extremely high standard.

  • ProofCollection
    ProofCollection Posts: 8,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Do you have Trueviews you can post? I be we can spot the issues.

  • cladking
    cladking Posts: 30,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Tuck70 said:
    They came back (45 days) PR68, PR69, PR69DC and another PR69DC, I'm telling you there is no way especially when i saw the PR68.

    Do you have any reason to believe that the coins were better? Did you compare them to similar coins?

    Coins are graded relative other coins so even if these were near perfect the simple fact is they might not have been near perfect enough.

    Most people have gotten grades that were too low or too high. It's the nature of the beast and wholly unavoidable. Ofttimes we'll find with further information the assigned grade was actually correct or appropriate.

    I'm just curious how much experience you have with these specific coins?

    tempus fugit extra philosophiam.
  • IkesT
    IkesT Posts: 4,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Tuck70 said:
    I sent in four coins - 1-2023 reverse morgan, 2- 2023 reverse peace, 3- 2023 morgan proof and 4- 2023 peace proof. I've been a skeptic for awhile now but know i'm convinced. I'm not a dealer and have not sent alot of coins to pcgs but i have collected coins for some time now , have a pretty nice collection of morgans (all graded and slabbed) and other coins that i've been interested in and i have a good amount of bullion. I was EXTREMELY careful, left them in the plastic holders, I literally took them out of the box from the mint and put them directly in the box i was shipping to pcgs. They came back (45 days) PR68, PR69, PR69DC and another PR69DC, I'm telling you there is no way especially when i saw the PR68. The game is rigged, if I was a dealer or well known i bet you they all would have been PR70's, Thats it for me - i'm sticking with gold and silver bullion

    I'm guessing this is one "Tuck" that will not be everlasting... :D

  • NJCoin
    NJCoin Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. First of all, people have 30 days to submit for First Strike, so they absolutely can and do open boxes and pre-screen. Moreover, bulk submitters can simply specify 70 as the minimum grade, thereby eliminating any need to pre-screen.

    This is what skews the pop reports. Not larger submitters receiving looser grading.

    Yes, the game is certainly stacked against the little guy, but not because the TPGs are cheating with the grades. Rather, it is because the bulk submitters are where they make their money, so they get privileges little guys don't.

    This is what creates the ecosystem that allows dealers to sell slabbed moderns for prices that are very attractive to individuals. The TPGs allow us to directly submit as an accommodation, but we are not where they make their money. As a result, they have no motive to screw around with our grades, one way or the other.

  • DocBenjamin
    DocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

  • JBK
    JBK Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

    I believe they can be submitted after the deadline if they are in an unopened shipping box and the postmark or invoice date is before.

  • ProofCollection
    ProofCollection Posts: 8,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

    No, it's always been the case that within 30 days anything goes. After that it must be in original mint sealed box.

  • DocBenjamin
    DocBenjamin Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @ProofCollection said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

    No, it's always been the case that within 30 days anything goes. After that it must be in original mint sealed box.

    I believe that you are incorrect.

  • NJCoin
    NJCoin Posts: 4,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

    No. That was never the case, other than if you wanted to submit after the 30 day deadline. Which is still the case today.

    While you are confused about that, it's not the major reason First Strike pops are overweighted with 70s. 70 minimum grading for bulk submitters is why. This does not mean they don't get 69s. It only means those 69s are not slabbed, and consequently don't make it into a pop report.

  • ProofCollection
    ProofCollection Posts: 8,071 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @ProofCollection said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @TomB said:

    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First Strike designated coins can be pre-screened. They just need to get to PCGS within 30-days of the official US Mint release date.

    Appreciate the correction. Seemed that they needed to be unopened, but that was a few years ago.

    No, it's always been the case that within 30 days anything goes. After that it must be in original mint sealed box.

    I believe that you are incorrect.

    Believe what you want. I've been submitting First Strikes since they started it.

  • 1madman
    1madman Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @VanHalen said:
    If you get three out of 10 70s on a modern submission you're doing really well.

    If you’re prescreening coins, and are only getting 3/10 to go 70, that is horrific. If that particular coin overall only has a 30% grade through 70 rate, that example will have a huge premium markup for 70s because of their scarcity.

    30% is low

  • VanHalen
    VanHalen Posts: 4,330 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @1madman said:

    @VanHalen said:
    If you get three out of 10 70s on a modern submission you're doing really well.

    If you’re prescreening coins, and are only getting 3/10 to go 70, that is horrific. If that particular coin overall only has a 30% grade through 70 rate, that example will have a huge premium markup for 70s because of their scarcity.

    30% is low

    It's a lot better than 0%. And no, I was an amateur collector submitting straight from the mint. They were not pre-screened, but the 70s I did get were true 70s. While 30% is low, I made some change selling the 70s and the 69s broke even.

    The modern 70 game is like the Fed Funds Rate.

  • Goldbully
    Goldbully Posts: 18,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I hope @Tuck70 will continue to post in response.

    After reading the responses, you may have some new remarks.

  • RobertScotLover
    RobertScotLover Posts: 1,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Tuc70,
    my point being why waste you money with the grading gods, it just doesn't matter, nothing is guaranteed when submitting to any grading co and that is why I stay away from the GAME

  • winesteven
    winesteven Posts: 5,608 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    For my 21st Century Type Set, or other 21st Century coins I buy, I buy them already slabbed, graded 70. As has been correctly pointed out above, the bulk submitters get great rates (and that’s ok), and most of them pass those savings on to us by charging reasonable pricing on the 70’s. As noted, they tend to mark their submission forms to not slab at any grade less than 70!

    Steve

    A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!

    My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
  • TwoSides2aCoin
    TwoSides2aCoin Posts: 45,219 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It stacks higher without the OGP or TPG
    Yes… get your bullion in the secondary market. It’s not in this forum. Pity about these modern classics.

  • jmlanzaf
    jmlanzaf Posts: 43,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2024 5:59AM
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    @DocBenjamin said:

    @JBK said:

    @DocBenjamin said:
    Pop report shows many variations on these coins. Best crunching I can do shows 68 grades to be exceedingly rare. and a 70 grade is 3 or four times more likely than a 69. So a random chance of all your coins grading sub 70 with a 68 is about 8,000 to one against for the non FS coins.

    So something was off with your order, doubt it was the grader, but stuff happens.

    But all coins are not being submitted/graded. The big players, for example, either pre-screen or set minimum grades. The pop reports are not a reflection of all coins produced.

    The First Strikes had an even higher percentage of 70's. Those cannot get prescreened. Conversely they don't have any schmutz on them. ;)

    First strikes are largely submitted with minimum 70 grades. Only bulk submitters can submit minimum 70.

    The pop reports are in no way a refection of coin quality out of the box.

    That said, the OPs results are a bit unusual. 68 is not common quality for modern Mint products. It is, however, not evidence of anything nefarious.

    All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.

  • jt88
    jt88 Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    For some modern coin maybe is not worth to grade but for older coin it is worth to grade even it is in details grade.

  • messydesk
    messydesk Posts: 20,819 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @jeffas1974 said:
    Don't posts like these usually wait until a bit later in the day on Friday to appear?

    Labor Day weekend. Friday is shorter for many.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • DoubleEagle59
    DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    The rumor that (some) dealers receive preferential treatment at the grading companies has been around since the inception of the grading companies.

    I can't form an opinion on this matter since I will never have the facts in front of me to do so.

    I just package the coins, ship them off, pay the bill and then accept the grades I get.

    That's all we can hope for.

    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • coinkat
    coinkat Posts: 24,542 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    No

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • DisneyFan
    DisneyFan Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @winesteven said:

    As has been correctly pointed out above, the bulk submitters get great rates (and that’s ok), and most of them pass those savings on to us by charging reasonable pricing on the 70’s. As noted, they tend to mark their submission forms to not slab at any grade less than 70!

    What's the advantage of not having a coin slabbed?

  • JBK
    JBK Posts: 17,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 31, 2024 7:07PM
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    @DisneyFan said:

    What's the advantage of not having a coin slabbed?

    Enjoying it in it's original packaging? Not feeling pressure or anxiety over having a coin that is not deemed to be "perfect"?

    Like in the old days. ;)

  • DisneyFan
    DisneyFan Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @JBK said:

    @DisneyFan said:

    What's the advantage of not having a coin slabbed?

    Enjoying it in it's original packaging? Not feeling pressure or anxiety over having a coin that is not deemed to be "perfect"?

    Like in the old days. ;)

    Good point. However, that would not apply to coins that are not encapsulated.

  • burfle23
    burfle23 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Maybe you can crack them out and instead put them in an album like your walkers...

  • BUFFNIXX
    BUFFNIXX Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Tuck70 said:
    I sent in four coins - 1-2023 reverse morgan, 2- 2023 reverse peace, 3- 2023 morgan proof and 4- 2023 peace proof. I've been a skeptic for awhile now but know i'm convinced. I'm not a dealer and have not sent alot of coins to pcgs but i have collected coins for some time now , have a pretty nice collection of morgans (all graded and slabbed) and other coins that i've been interested in and i have a good amount of bullion. I was EXTREMELY careful, left them in the plastic holders, I literally took them out of the box from the mint and put them directly in the box i was shipping to pcgs. They came back (45 days) PR68, PR69, PR69DC and another PR69DC, I'm telling you there is no way especially when i saw the PR68. The game is rigged, if I was a dealer or well known i bet you they all would have been PR70's, Thats it for me - i'm sticking with gold and silver bullion

    I think they have a dart board and they just throw a dart at the board to get a 68, 69, or 70 grade. Does that make you feel a bit better. Any grade that you get is just a pig in a poke unless you like it. I had four pcgs slabbed half eagles dated 1998 and they were graded three at ms69 and one at ms68. For the life of me though I tried I got not tell why the one got a 68 instead of a 69.

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • derryb
    derryb Posts: 38,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    proofs show more surface issues, stick with submitting new business strikes

    Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Bastiat

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