This is the only image of an 1888 / 7 I can find that shows the remnants of 88 in the 2nd and 3rd 8s.
The alignment with this broken date coin puts the lower initial damage directly underneath the CUD of 1888 last 8 over 7.
Damage to the deepest part of the incused 3rd 8 that would have been missed by the repair.
No matter if you are right or wrong, keep thinking and posting. It is the sign of an intelligent mind. Only you can change your opinion and it will come. Otherwise, your persistance in the face of total disagreement might expose something or at the least make the expert members here continue to educate the rest of us.
@jmlanzaf and other experts, is this true: "Bear in mind that any overdating of a die has to be done before it is hardened for its initial use.Once hardened, the die is never re-annealed, or softened."
Are dies re-annealed when they are being made with a hub?
@Married2Coins said:
Thanks. I thought it took more than one press to make a working die so they had to be softened between the blows.
This is true. In fact, Class II doubled dies can result from the annealing process. From Wexler:
“…the Mint has said, and independent research has confirmed, that during the annealing process when the die was heated to soften it, the die would expand from the heat. As it cooled it was supposed to return to its original diameter. This did not always happen.
When the working dies did not return to its original diameter, the images around the rim of the die would not be perfectly aligned with the images on the hub. When the next impression was made, doubling would occur.”
IMO, you definetly have another coin that will surly go down in the history of CU along with hundreds of others posted in the past. The best thing I can say about your coin (one all members should agree with) is that it is 100% unique.
Question for members:
Would it be foolish of me to believe that most (if not all) of the experts on historically pertinent coins read this forum? Or, that one expert would notify another if a significant coin were to appear in a thread?
There’s no “place in history” for it
There is a place in a public landfill that’s waiting for it
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
Believe it that I believe it.
I believe it as much as you believe it “deserves a place in history“
Sometimes damaged coins can be educational, but you’ve proven this is not the case in this example
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
After researching more information on how a coin can have strike-through with raised material above the field. I thought I would add some explanations that appear to not be considered in general understanding of PMD vs strike through.
Someone said the speed of the press would not allow the press to be held up. This is to clarify what physics dictates will happen to a press when power is cut to the Flywheel during a finger assembly issue on a press in 1888.
It ends up that a press will back off of its bottom dead center strike as soon as the power is cut to the flywheel and the gap between the fully formed coin and the die will increase to as much as .002" in the case of the press running in 1888.
I tested a 60-ton mechanical knuckle joint press running at 87 strokes a minute which resulted in that gap opening when struck at 10 to 15 strokes a minute. The press was closing at .040" at full speed, and .042" when it was slowed to 10 to 15
This research in my opinion negates all the arguments against the validity of my coin being an error coin caused by the mint.
Multiple strikes by a decelerating press creates what will look like PMD. It will allow material to creep into formed areas, it will require raised material around strike-through objects. it will allow distortion of a feature when a strike-through object is pushed into the feature while the press is nearly stopped.
@Sberry002 said:
After researching more information on how a coin can have strike-through with raised material above the field. I thought I would add some explanations that appear to not be considered in general understanding of PMD vs strike through.
Someone said the speed of the press would not allow the press to be held up. This is to clarify what physics dictates will happen to a press when power is cut to the Flywheel during a finger assembly issue on a press in 1888.
It ends up that a press will back off of its bottom dead center strike as soon as the power is cut to the flywheel and the gap between the fully formed coin and the die will increase to as much as .002" in the case of the press running in 1888.
I tested a 60-ton mechanical knuckle joint press running at 87 strokes a minute which resulted in that gap opening when struck at 10 to 15 strokes a minute. The press was closing at .040" at full speed, and .042" when it was slowed to 10 to 15
This research in my opinion negates all the arguments against the validity of my coin being an error coin caused by the mint.
Multiple strikes by a decelerating press creates what will look like PMD. It will allow material to creep into formed areas, it will require raised material around strike-through objects. it will allow distortion of a feature when a strike-through object is pushed into the feature while the press is nearly stopped.
>
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
Can you explain why the rest of the coin was struck, when in your diagram, the die doesn't come into contact with the planchet.
Lets say it was struck once originally then reinjected into the striking chamber.
Ordinarily that would never happen but let's say it did.
Why doesn't the coin show ANY signs of that second strike?
No way whatever was allegedly struck through was hard enough to not get flattened by the does.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
The Forum cannot certify your coin, so there is no point giving any of your "facts" to us.
Staple your facts to the submission form and send the coin to a TPG; then, they will have everything they need. Case closed.
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
Can you explain why the rest of the coin was struck, when in your diagram, the die doesn't come into contact with the planchet.
as soon as power is cut to address a failing finger mechanism, the press will lose velocity and back off from the
already formed coin. That is what the first diagram is meant to show.
Lets say it was struck once originally then reinjected into the striking chamber. '
The only way to ever have an on-center coin in 1888 is if the spring that is used to hold the fingers together
fails. At that point an operator has to disengage the clutch and step on a foot brake to slow the press by friction.
Ordinarily that would never happen but let's say it did.
It is an incredibly rare occurrence, so I doubt the operator reaction was very quick. Meaning the penny was struck
multiple times at full speed before power was cut to the flywheel.
Why doesn't the coin show ANY signs of that second strike?
The coin itself shows the last 3 consecutive strikes as the press was being stopped.
1st across the bottom of the third 8. breaking the 8s inner bottom loop punch.
2nd pushing the broken bottom loop punch meshed with the foreign object that caused the break. left center.
3rd simultaneously pushing a second broken piece from the 8 directly over the top of the second strike thru as well
as the broken inner loop into the right middle of the third 8 raising material up. The last strike before stopping.
No way whatever was allegedly struck through was hard enough to not get flattened by the does.
The strike thru objects are die tooling and likely shrapnel from the finger.
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
Can you explain why the rest of the coin was struck, when in your diagram, the die doesn't come into contact with the planchet.
as soon as power is cut to address a failing finger mechanism, the press will lose velocity and back off from the
already formed coin. That is what the first diagram is meant to show.
Lets say it was struck once originally then reinjected into the striking chamber. '
The only way to ever have an on-center coin in 1888 is if the spring that is used to hold the fingers together
fails. At that point an operator has to disengage the clutch and step on a foot brake to slow the press by friction.
Ordinarily that would never happen but let's say it did.
It is an incredibly rare occurrence, so I doubt the operator reaction was very quick. Meaning the penny was struck
multiple times at full speed before power was cut to the flywheel.
Why doesn't the coin show ANY signs of that second strike?
The coin itself shows the last 3 consecutive strikes as the press was being stopped.
1st across the bottom of the third 8. breaking the 8s inner bottom loop punch.
2nd pushing the broken bottom loop punch meshed with the foreign object that caused the break. left center.
3rd simultaneously pushing a second broken piece from the 8 directly over the top of the second strike thru as well
as the broken inner loop into the right middle of the third 8 raising material up. The last strike before stopping.
No way whatever was allegedly struck through was hard enough to not get flattened by the does.
The strike thru objects are die tooling and likely shrapnel from the finger.
Occam's Razor.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
Can you explain why the rest of the coin was struck, when in your diagram, the die doesn't come into contact with the planchet.
as soon as power is cut to address a failing finger mechanism, the press will lose velocity and back off from the
already formed coin. That is what the first diagram is meant to show.
Lets say it was struck once originally then reinjected into the striking chamber. '
The only way to ever have an on-center coin in 1888 is if the spring that is used to hold the fingers together
fails. At that point an operator has to disengage the clutch and step on a foot brake to slow the press by friction.
Ordinarily that would never happen but let's say it did.
It is an incredibly rare occurrence, so I doubt the operator reaction was very quick. Meaning the penny was struck
multiple times at full speed before power was cut to the flywheel.
Why doesn't the coin show ANY signs of that second strike?
The coin itself shows the last 3 consecutive strikes as the press was being stopped.
1st across the bottom of the third 8. breaking the 8s inner bottom loop punch.
2nd pushing the broken bottom loop punch meshed with the foreign object that caused the break. left center.
3rd simultaneously pushing a second broken piece from the 8 directly over the top of the second strike thru as well
as the broken inner loop into the right middle of the third 8 raising material up. The last strike before stopping.
No way whatever was allegedly struck through was hard enough to not get flattened by the does.
The strike thru objects are die tooling and likely shrapnel from the finger.
@jmlanzaf said:
I actually envy the OP. Think about it. You buy one damaged coin and you get to amuse yourself with a year of research. Cheapest possible amusement. And when you throw in the trolling bonus, he's gotten more fun out of a dollar than you ever did.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
I actually envy the OP. Think about it. You buy one damaged coin and you get to amuse yourself with a year of research. Cheapest possible amusement. And when you throw in the trolling bonus, he's gotten more fun out of a dollar than you ever did.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
😉
You are mostly correct except I didn't buy it, it was in my father's indian head book for probably 75 years.
And putting together the puzzle of this coin is very interesting.
@jmlanzaf said:
I actually envy the OP. Think about it. You buy one damaged coin and you get to amuse yourself with a year of research. Cheapest possible amusement. And when you throw in the trolling bonus, he's gotten more fun out of a dollar than you ever did.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
😉
You are mostly correct except I didn't buy it, it was in my father's indian head book for probably 75 years.
And putting together the puzzle of this coin is very interesting.
I didn’t assume or say that you bought it. I said “more fun out of…”, not “more fun for…”.
I’m sincerely glad that you’re enjoying yourself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@jmlanzaf said:
I actually envy the OP. Think about it. You buy one damaged coin and you get to amuse yourself with a year of research. Cheapest possible amusement. And when you throw in the trolling bonus, he's gotten more fun out of a dollar than you ever did.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
@jmlanzaf said:
I actually envy the OP. Think about it. You buy one damaged coin and you get to amuse yourself with a year of research. Cheapest possible amusement. And when you throw in the trolling bonus, he's gotten more fun out of a dollar than you ever did.
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
😉
You are mostly correct except I didn't buy it, it was in my father's indian head book for probably 75 years.
And putting together the puzzle of this coin is very interesting.
Comments
No matter if you are right or wrong, keep thinking and posting. It is the sign of an intelligent mind. Only you can change your opinion and it will come. Otherwise, your persistance in the face of total disagreement might expose something or at the least make the expert members here continue to educate the rest of us.
@jmlanzaf and other experts, is this true: "Bear in mind that any overdating of a die has to be done before it is hardened for its initial use.Once hardened, the die is never re-annealed, or softened."
Are dies re-annealed when they are being made with a hub?
The history of the US Mint.
Technically it is also mine.
Thanks. I thought it took more than one press to make a working die so they had to be softened between the blows.
This is true. In fact, Class II doubled dies can result from the annealing process. From Wexler:
“…the Mint has said, and independent research has confirmed, that during the annealing process when the die was heated to soften it, the die would expand from the heat. As it cooled it was supposed to return to its original diameter. This did not always happen.
When the working dies did not return to its original diameter, the images around the rim of the die would not be perfectly aligned with the images on the hub. When the next impression was made, doubling would occur.”
My opinion is that the number of reasons to not believe this coin is what it is, only adds to its place in history.
https://scientific-certifications-1888-i.shorthandstories.com/the-history-of-1888-snow-10/index.html
IMO, you definetly have another coin that will surly go down in the history of CU along with hundreds of others posted in the past. The best thing I can say about your coin (one all members should agree with) is that it is 100% unique.
Question for members:
Would it be foolish of me to believe that most (if not all) of the experts on historically pertinent coins read this forum? Or, that one expert would notify another if a significant coin were to appear in a thread?
There’s no “place in history” for it
There is a place in a public landfill that’s waiting for it
Some people hold tight to that dream.... ! And it won't matter whatever anyone tells them!
It took me a minute but I finally figured it out..
I don't believe that you believe that.
I don't think anyone else does either.
Believe it that I believe it.
I believe it as much as you believe it “deserves a place in history“
Sometimes damaged coins can be educational, but you’ve proven this is not the case in this example
>
Why?
Mainly because he doesn't give technical reasoning for his conclusions.
and because I called the public landfill, and they didn't know what I was talking about.....
After researching more information on how a coin can have strike-through with raised material above the field. I thought I would add some explanations that appear to not be considered in general understanding of PMD vs strike through.
Someone said the speed of the press would not allow the press to be held up. This is to clarify what physics dictates will happen to a press when power is cut to the Flywheel during a finger assembly issue on a press in 1888.
It ends up that a press will back off of its bottom dead center strike as soon as the power is cut to the flywheel and the gap between the fully formed coin and the die will increase to as much as .002" in the case of the press running in 1888.
I tested a 60-ton mechanical knuckle joint press running at 87 strokes a minute which resulted in that gap opening when struck at 10 to 15 strokes a minute. The press was closing at .040" at full speed, and .042" when it was slowed to 10 to 15
This research in my opinion negates all the arguments against the validity of my coin being an error coin caused by the mint.
Multiple strikes by a decelerating press creates what will look like PMD. It will allow material to creep into formed areas, it will require raised material around strike-through objects. it will allow distortion of a feature when a strike-through object is pushed into the feature while the press is nearly stopped.
All the things that exist on this one coin.
Ok but you're still wrong.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
>
If it is a mint-made error, what then?
If it really matters to you so much, why haven’t you submitted it to a grading company?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What I just posted are actual facts that are not listed in any coin related reference that a authenticator would find or use. No one's ever pointed it out.
So I don't want to pay for a mistake.
Press engineer is not a requirement of authenticator.
Buy someday maybe it will included and It will be certified.
Can you explain why the rest of the coin was struck, when in your diagram, the die doesn't come into contact with the planchet.
Lets say it was struck once originally then reinjected into the striking chamber.
Ordinarily that would never happen but let's say it did.
Why doesn't the coin show ANY signs of that second strike?
No way whatever was allegedly struck through was hard enough to not get flattened by the does.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
When your "coin wink" looks nothing like your "treat strike", you're in trouble.
The Forum cannot certify your coin, so there is no point giving any of your "facts" to us.
Staple your facts to the submission form and send the coin to a TPG; then, they will have everything they need. Case closed.
as soon as power is cut to address a failing finger mechanism, the press will lose velocity and back off from the already formed coin. That is what the first diagram is meant to show.The only way to ever have an on-center coin in 1888 is if the spring that is used to hold the fingers together fails. At that point an operator has to disengage the clutch and step on a foot brake to slow the press by friction.It is an incredibly rare occurrence, so I doubt the operator reaction was very quick. Meaning the penny was struck multiple times at full speed before power was cut to the flywheel.The coin itself shows the last 3 consecutive strikes as the press was being stopped. 1st across the bottom of the third 8. breaking the 8s inner bottom loop punch. 2nd pushing the broken bottom loop punch meshed with the foreign object that caused the break. left center. 3rd simultaneously pushing a second broken piece from the 8 directly over the top of the second strike thru as well as the broken inner loop into the right middle of the third 8 raising material up. The last strike before stopping.The memes are exhausted. They don’t want to come out anymore.
Occam's Razor.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I don’t know what you’ve been reading or what pictures you’ve been looking at. But the OP’s gotten more fun out of a cent (not dollar).😀
😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You are mostly correct except I didn't buy it, it was in my father's indian head book for probably 75 years.
And putting together the puzzle of this coin is very interesting.
I didn’t assume or say that you bought it. I said “more fun out of…”, not “more fun for…”.
I’m sincerely glad that you’re enjoying yourself.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
With access to a sixty-ton press I would make my own hysterical errors.
... out of a cent he PAID a dollar for.
Snow 10 with CUD.