1888 Indian Head Damage in and around the 3rd 8. For discussion relative to PMD vs Mint Damage.
Damaged 
1888 Indian Head Cent for discussion purposes.
Comments
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In the area to the left of the 8, there are raised ridges around the impression, which are a clear indication of PMD (see my edit of your pic). From your pics, I'm not seeing similar ridges in the area inside the 8, but being that there's already established PMD close by, it seems likely it's more of the same.
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Great pictures! 👍
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
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Welcome to the forum
I am in the PMD camp. Whatever caused the gouge caused the damage to the 8.
Any displacement of metal was worn down by circulation with the 8 being higher.4 -
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What about the 2-pronged tail showing up in 2 different places?
Additionally, how does someone explain the foot like object showing up twice?1 -
@Sberry002 said:
What about the 2-pronged tail showing up in 2 different places?
Additionally, how does someone explain the foot like object showing up twice?Ok, you win, It's worth a million dollars.
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@Sberry002 said:
What about the 2-pronged tail showing up in 2 different places?
Additionally, how does someone explain the foot like object showing up twice?A pixie jumped on it (outside the Mint).
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P. M. D
no matter how u look at it3 -
Welcome to the forum and while I feel pmd as well, I do thank you for sharing.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain0 -
What if the foot with the prongs fits into the bottom inner loop and its prongs.
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@Sberry002 said:
What if the foot with the prongs fits into the bottom inner loop and its prongs.Seems like your question is more about the prongs than the coin. Have you tried the Prong Forum?
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Welcome, please don’t eat the teachers. There’s a couple hundred years of experience informing you—however, you did write discussion in the title, and you’ll get a discussion.
@Emerald ATV—how about some illumination here?
Search a video that supports your suspicions,
Feet and prongs are body parts.
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@Fraz said:
Welcome, please don’t eat the teachers. There’s a couple hundred years of experience informing you—however, you did write discussion in the title, and you’ll get a discussion.@Emerald ATV—how about some illumination here?
Search a video that supports your suspicions,
Feet and prongs are body parts.
I was going to talk about the elephant head, But I don't think everyone gets my sense of humor on here.
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@Sberry002 said:
I was going to talk about the elephant head, But I don't think everyone gets my sense of humor on here.Good reply, maybe you stopped the memes.
@IkesT said:
@Sberry002 said:
What if the foot with the prongs fits into the bottom inner loop and its prongs.Seems like your question is more about the prongs than the coin. Have you tried the Prong Forum?
Members, don’t search Prong Forum!
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If a coin is multiple struck with objects bouncing around between the obverse die and the coin, how would you differentiate PMD from damage in the press?
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@Sberry002 said:
If a coin is multiple struck with objects bouncing around between the obverse die and the coin, how would you differentiate PMD from damage in the press?Common sense.
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That question assumes acrobatics, you mean:
How do you tell circulation damage from a defect in the minting process?
Understand the process of minting coins.3 -
@Fraz said:
That question assumes acrobatics, you mean:
How do you tell circulation damage from a defect in the minting process?
Understand the process of minting coins.I meant damage caused before the final strike in a failure of the mechanism that transfers planchets and coins in 1888.
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@Manifest_Destiny said:
@Sberry002 said:
If a coin is multiple struck with objects bouncing around between the obverse die and the coin, how would you differentiate PMD from damage in the press?Common sense.
We started by filling albums and seeing thousands of coins, some of us sixty years.
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@Sberry002 said:
@Fraz said:
That question assumes acrobatics, you mean:
How do you tell circulation damage from a defect in the minting process?
Understand the process of minting coins.I meant damage caused before the final strike in a failure of the mechanism that transfers planchets and coins in 1888.
Strike throughs don't leave raised metal around the edges of the strike through. You have an obviously PMD junk indian cent.
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@Manifest_Destiny said:
Strike throughs don't leave raised metal around the edges of the strike through. You have an obviously PMD junk indian cent.
sometimes they do
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@Sberry002 said:
@Manifest_Destiny said:
Strike throughs don't leave raised metal around the edges of the strike through. You have an obviously PMD junk indian cent.
sometimes they do
Read the sign, you might have other questions in the future; questions which you want members to react with sobriety.
I have to plough the pond now.2 -
Understood.
Aside from not being able to find anything stating that there can be no displacement above the field, which on the surface makes very logical sense, I would question the fact that a strike through isn't capable of holding the press open enough to not re impact the field.
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There may be only one person here who can help you.
@jmlanzaf - There is a willing learner here who would like you to teach them about prongs. They would be your "prong protégé", so to speak. I'm no expert, but I'm sensing the prong protégé potential is strong with this one. You might call it a prong protégé premonition...
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This is an opportunity to point out to the OP, that when a discussion poster stonewalls, we troll on each other in search of mootness.
@IkesT —No, I disagreee. We have another local running around here who is prodigiously more prong appropriate.
Lanza excels at bouncing objects, or perhaps, feet.4 -
Before I pointed out where the struck thru object 1 was from, it would be incredibly logical to hear PMD.
After.... Not so much. It's not that difficult in my opinion.
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@Sberry002 said:
Before I pointed out where the struck thru object 1 was from, it would be incredibly logical to hear PMD.After.... Not so much. It's not that difficult in my opinion.
The prong protégé potential is palpable!
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@Sberry002 said:
Before I pointed out where the struck thru object 1 was from, it would be incredibly logical to hear PMD.After.... Not so much. It's not that difficult in my opinion.
You're not allowed to collect coins anymore.
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@Manifest_Destiny said:
@Sberry002 said:
Before I pointed out where the struck thru object 1 was from, it would be incredibly logical to hear PMD.After.... Not so much. It's not that difficult in my opinion.
You're not allowed to collect coins anymore.
Why collect coins when you're a prong prodigy?
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@IkesT said:
@Manifest_Destiny said:
@Sberry002 said:
Before I pointed out where the struck thru object 1 was from, it would be incredibly logical to hear PMD.After.... Not so much. It's not that difficult in my opinion.
You're not allowed to collect coins anymore.
Why collect coins when you're a prong prodigy?
Perhaps that's a perfect perception.
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@Sberry002 said:
in my opinion.It must be your opinion. Only your eyes are on it. No one will venture more than we have so far.
See what it brings on eBay with a description that is your opinion.
Save it in the Indian head tube
Pay fifty plus dollars to a TPG to verify your feelings.
You’re not stuck here reading what you don’t wish to hear.3 -
Moved metal, raised ridges, gouges in the surface....
If it were some sort of second strike that didn't quite reach the coin's surface to flattened down the first strike then the details of the die would not have reached the coin in the second strike.
But I'm not going to engage on this topic any further.
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Ok, suppose you are right. Then after your mint event occurred, some post mint damage occurred on top of your mint event and destroyed any evidence of what happened. If you are so certain, send it in and make us out foolish responders. Good luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain0 -
@Sberry002 said:
What about the 2-pronged tail showing up in 2 different places?
Additionally, how does someone explain the foot like object showing up twice?It got hit more than once with the same object.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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They meet.
Remember this day, and that you bore witness.
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....
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
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@Shurke said:
In the area to the left of the 8, there are raised ridges around the impression, which are a clear indication of PMD (see my edit of your pic). From your pics, I'm not seeing similar ridges in the area inside the 8, but being that there's already established PMD close by, it seems likely it's more of the same.I have been studying this coin for a year, posting it occasionally to get feedback, and I am irritated that I missed that. It is conflicting with all the other information I strongly believe about the coin. Thank you for pointing it out, and I did finally find it described.
The conflict is two things that can't be true at the same time. Either there are exceptions in the process that can allow a strike thru to be raised to some degree from the field or the three strikes that match almost perfectly must be an incredible coincidence.
Which brings me to the process itself.
In order to have on center multiple strikes beyond the intentional double striking of a proof, it would have been impossible to have only 3 strikes in 1888. There is only one possible means of multiple on strikes, and that is a spring failure that pulls the two halves of the fingers to stop moving planchets and coins while the press is running 100 strokes a minute. An operator needed to manually disengage the belt driven press and step on a foot pedal which would take time to slow and finally stop the energy in the flywheel. To put that into perspective, 6 seconds would have allowed 10 strikes on the coin.
Additionally, the first strike would have been normal before the malfunctioning of the fingers. Because it made it to the die and successfully placed the planchet on the die to be struck with the fingers were on the way back
.
The concept that the field should be flattened on a strikethrough is assuming a single strike.The final strikes on this coin were while an operator, (likely a woman operator) was stepping on a foot pedal and bringing the press to a stop.
I'm adding a picture of a proof double struck on purpose to show what evidence is visible in a simple intentional double strike. I believe my coin is struck more than 10 times.
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@Sberry002 said:
The conflict is two things that can't be true at the same time. Either there are exceptions in the process that can allow a strike thru to be raised to some degree from the field or the three strikes that match almost perfectly must be an incredible coincidence.Or the third option. Neither are true.
Here's a book that may help.
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O...M...G
It's a damaged coin.
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@Sberry002 said:
@Shurke said:
In the area to the left of the 8, there are raised ridges around the impression, which are a clear indication of PMD (see my edit of your pic). From your pics, I'm not seeing similar ridges in the area inside the 8, but being that there's already established PMD close by, it seems likely it's more of the same.
I have been studying this coin for a year, posting it occasionally to get feedback, and I am irritated that I missed that. It is conflicting with all the other information I strongly believe about the coin. Thank you for pointing it out, and I did finally find it described.The conflict is two things that can't be true at the same time. Either there are exceptions in the process that can allow a strike thru to be raised to some degree from the field or the three strikes that match almost perfectly must be an incredible coincidence.
Which brings me to the process itself.
In order to have on center multiple strikes beyond the intentional double striking of a proof, it would have been impossible to have only 3 strikes in 1888. There is only one possible means of multiple on strikes, and that is a spring failure that pulls the two halves of the fingers to stop moving planchets and coins while the press is running 100 strokes a minute. An operator needed to manually disengage the belt driven press and step on a foot pedal which would take time to slow and finally stop the energy in the flywheel. To put that into perspective, 6 seconds would have allowed 10 strikes on the coin.
Additionally, the first strike would have been normal before the malfunctioning of the fingers. Because it made it to the die and successfully placed the planchet on the die to be struck with the fingers were on the way back
.
The concept that the field should be flattened on a strikethrough is assuming a single strike.The final strikes on this coin were while an operator, (likely a woman operator) was stepping on a foot pedal and bringing the press to a stop.
I'm adding a picture of a proof double struck on purpose to show what evidence is visible in a simple intentional double strike. I believe my coin is struck more than 10 times.
I don't think anything except a coin that is stuck to the die is struck 10+ times. You should really consider the previous advice about PMD.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
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@Sberry002 said:
@CRHer700 said:
I don't think anything except a coin that is stuck to the die is struck 10+ times. You should really consider the previous advice about PMD.
I didn't know Coins get stuck to dies.
Clearly not on proof coins.
The coin that you have also does not look like a proof. Proofs are very shiny and smooth looking in their original condition.
God bless all who believe in him. Do unto others what you expect to be done to you. Dubbed a "Committee Secret Agent" by @mr1931S on 7/23/24. Founding member of CU Anti-Troll League since 9/24/24.
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@Sberry002 said:
@CRHer700 said:
I don't think anything except a coin that is stuck to the die is struck 10+ times. You should really consider the previous advice about PMD.
I didn't know Coins get stuck to dies.
Clearly not on proof coins.
Ever heard of a die cap?
4
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