How do you grade Ike dollars? Any tips?
Married2Coins
Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
I know this is a big question about unpopular coins to most BUT: What do you look for when grading Ikes? These coins are all over the place both raw and slabbed. In high grade they are very attractive and I think the series has room to grow. The raw coins are not very expensive but BU coins come with all sorts of imperfections. There are linss and hits that look like they were on the planchet. Sometimes it is hard for me to tell if it is PMD.
PS I've got books from the Ike Group collectors so I've cherry picked several varieties (no '72 yet) but I still can't figure out the grading. I've seen lots of these coins with fresh scrapes on the eagle that I know is damage yet they are straight graded? Could these bright scrapes come from the mint?
Happy Easter and the other Regilous Holidays
Comments
They have tons of planchet flaws in the clad strikes.
Thanks. I knw what hese are and I treat them like a bagg mark. I'm hoping for a little more insight. There must be some Ike specialists on this forum.
It is easy to concentrate on finding these without the bag marks and such and for looking at the strike.
Although important- remember luster is king in pushing a grade to MS66 or better.
peacockcoins
Ike’s drive me nuts. I see example after example, (silver clad), in 67 and 68 holders with spots and I can’t wrap my head around that.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Finding these in full GEM (clad: MS65 or better) is a chore yet worth it.
Edited to add:
I look everyday- it is part of the joy I find with this hobby.
peacockcoins
Here are three I purchased off of eBay- all shipped and should be arriving by mid-week:
The 1971-P in GEM and the 1976-P Type 1 in GEM are two somewhat more difficult Ikes
to locate. Again I prioritize luster.
peacockcoins
On the very first Ike in your pics, I’m stumped. I must be missing something as to why it’s a 65? It looks a lot cleaner than most 67’s I’ve seen, and I’ve looked at literally 200 MS67 Ike’s, both P and N, in the last week alone. (Filling my 7070 Ike hole)
Maybe my old eyes are failing me….
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
The top 65 isn't even as clean as the NGC 65 right under it. It has a number of bag marks on the bust.
Spots do not preclude 68 or even 69 in any series.
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With due respect to you and this Holy Day for some of us, I'll open this can of spam for Easter: IMHO, your opinion is exactly what is wrong with blanket statements. What type of spot? What color of spot? What number of spots and their location or size are allowed on a coin grading 68 or 69? By whom"
Your post does not mention the grade of 70 . Therefore, spots must be part of your grading system. They are part of mine. CAN ALL OF US AGREE that no spots are allowed for a 70.......................................... grade.
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Perhaps some members reading this can show some coins graded 68 with spots. Are co...........................................................................per spots found on 68 gold coins? Can a Silver Eagle be graded 69 with a white spot? I recall a long time ago that a gem Lincoln cent developed a spot or was graded with a spot and its grade had to be lowered. I don't think any TPGS guarantee coins will not develop spots after they are slabbed; but don't trust me on this. I only buy coins already graded so I don't know their guarantees.
It looks like the post was edited after my comment and before yours. There was a whole different set of photos above the current and only three pics now on here. It was that 65 I was referring to.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I grade coins based on vibes. I'm pretty decent. So I grade ikes based on the vibe they give me.
If I'm stuck flipping between two grades it gets a plus. IE 64 or 65 gets a 64+.
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
Spots are not allowed on 70s. See "the great milk spot controversy" for details. But a spot here or there doesn't preclude 69, 68, 67 etc. That "blanket statement" is wholly accurate. Now, SOME spots will preclude any number of grades including ALL straight grades. But, you just said "spots" without further description. And a small spot here or there is perfectly acceptable in ALL COIN SERIES on coins in 69 or lower.
If you have specific spots, please mention them. A corrosion spot would certainly preclude a 69. A small milk spot or carbon spot will not.
And you can LOL all you want, but there are thousands of modern commems and ASEs in 69 holders that have a small "spot" here or there.
Not intirely accurate.
I edited my post at 10:44 and you posted at 10:48.
You thus posted after my edit.
-I did so as I am selling one of those coins in the next couple of weeks and didn't want a conflict of interest.
peacockcoins
I assume he means that he was writing the post based on the previous photo.
I totally get that. Perhaps I wasn’t explicitly clear on my meaning, for which I apologize, and which was:
Ike’s specifically drive me nuts because I cannot think of any other series* of coins that on the whole, regularly have spots, milk and/or carbon, in the higher grades, (67 & up). When I’m looking to fill a hole and I’m searching for that high end gem Ike and at least 90% have spots it’s frustrating.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Good point.
That makes more sense.
peacockcoins
Exactly. Just clarifying my comment wasn’t based on the existing set of photos. My eyes ain’t great, but they’re not that bad. 😉
It’s funny how minutes can matter. In the time it took for me to write my comment the post changed. Little too much gin and tonic last night and the cpu in my skull was lagging.
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
I guess all of us are willing to accept different defects and different severity of those defects. My standards may be higher than yours because I've been badly stung while "going with the flow." I don't own any spotted coins because they lower the eye appeal. I had a slabbed coin develop a spot and I sold it to a dealer. Would you purchase any spotted Silver Eagles for your collection? If you are a dealer, would you sell a spotted 68 SE to your customer? That's a stupid question as SE are bullion yet prices for the older 70's are pretty high. I am not a coin dealer but I have never (blanket statment- LOL) seen a copper coingraded even 67 with a "small carbon spot."
Please don't blame the messenger. You posted this: "Spots do not preclude 68 or even 69 in any series" without further description which prompted me to gag when I read it. As I wrote: "IMHO, your opinion is exactly what is wrong with blanket statements. What type of spot? What color of spot? What number of spots and their location or size are allowed on a coin grading 68 or 69? By whom"
I don't sell the coins I collect (except when they spot). I think a discussion about this from the five star members who sell coins would be an interesting can of opinions. I'll value yours if you that the time to elaborate on anything EXCEPT Silver eagles.
One of my favorite Ikes:
peacockcoins
@ThomasH
You LOL at the OP's coins. Do you collect Ikes? Do you disagree with the grades? If so, please leave a reason for your LOL to educate me and actually ADD SOMTHING USEFUL to this discussion. Thanks.
Here is how I do it. I have a reference MS65 that I put in front of me on a towel. Then I take all the Ikes and line them up, also on the towel. I compare each Ike to the graded on and if it makes muster it gets sent to PCGS. I haven't done Ikes in years but this is a good way to do it as the lighting is the same and you can compare to other raw ones and the reference graded example.
bob
Now you have
https://coins.ha.com/itm/lincoln-cents/1975-1c-ms68-red-pcgs-secure/a/1274-4617.s
Thanks. That gives me an Idea for the humor thread. Caption: Serious numismatist frantically searches for a rarly seen Lincoln cent graded MS-68 Red with a carbon spot!" POTFL
Lol. It took 30 seconds. I searched "Heritage + Lincoln + 68 + carbon" and there it was. Broaden yourself to Buffalo nickels and you'll see even more.
What does it grade?> @AUandAG said:
It is too bad all coins cannot be graded that way. There would be fewer "mistakes?" Even the online grading images have coins that look worse graded higher than the better looking coin with a lesser grade!
Thanks again. Your experience has proven me to be totally wrong. A Carbon spot is corrosion to me. Same goes for many black spots on coins that are not dirt. Just because I won't buy them does not mean others won't.
It's not too tough.
It does help if you have some experience in knowing what the range and average condition is.
The services are pretty forgiving of spots, planchet scratches, and poor strikes but they are not forgiving of marking. I'd suggest that if you lack experience with these coins the best bet is to look at a few high grade slabs to get an idea of the marking they tolerate. Nice flash on clean coins get high grades.
If you're buying I'd suggest to steer away from poor strikes and planchet issues.
Poor strikes isn't a huge problem for mint set years because there are plenty of good strikes by good dies but the '71 and '72 issues are very tough in nice solid well made Gem.
Strikes can be superb especially on the 78-D, and '76-D type II is often seen in nice PL. Most of these can be found PL though the '74 is greatly muted. The '76 type I gets a bump because it is very hard to find without excessive marking. About 40% of mint set specimens can't even be sold as "chBU".
Most Gems come from mint sets and the '75, '77, and '78 sets usually have tarnished Ikes.
I'd also avoid buying Ikes with any mint set tarnish since it can't always be removed. It's OK to buy raw coins this way but I'd avoid paying much premium because future collectors might not accept the tarnish. It is ubiquitous on the '76 type I's but can usually (75%) be removed on the Philly and even more often on the Denver (95%) unless it's extremely bad or also spotted. The '77 Philly is another that might not clean up OK.
Alcohol and acetone are very gentle ways to remove the tarnish.
I go by the PCGS Grading Standards. But the tarnished ones crap imo.
Thanks. I agree that PCGS has provided a great guide. I have studied the grading images for Ike's but find they are not as helpfull as the ones for the other eries. I think it has a lot to do with the coin's design.
Just arrived today:
peacockcoins
just 2 points away from perfection. I'll bet a 70 does not exist for MS ikes.
Forgive me if showing Ikes on this thread is a soft-hyjack.
peacockcoins
Are you sleeping with your coins 😂
This looks like a bedroom shot.
This one is currently in route to our host and I'm hoping to break the 66 barrier (I've hit 66 a few times so I know this one has a shot). This pic is before the MS70 bath and can't seem to find the after although it looks similar to the second coin shown.
Edited for the correct after pics.
67? Prob the nicest clad unc Ike I have ever seen!
You have an excellent shot, I'd think.
Here is a PCGS Ike- just sold for over 7K- that has your appearance:
peacockcoins
Fingers crossed, the cleaning revealed (better) the hit in front of the ear but the chin, forehead, and fields are pretty clean. I'll post results once the TV pops.
Not too concerned with the grade here it’s the trueview that will sell this one.
Great comments here. In general, I’d say grade them like any other coin….. with a few comments. The Ike design has enormous flat devices and fields. Marks in these areas stand out more than they would on a busier design. Others have addressed the strike issues. As was said, luster is the key to higher grades. There are many pathways to get to MS63 but no path to MS66 or higher without decent luster.
BTW, I love Ike’s. As a kid in the Rocky Mountains, I spent many dozens (hundreds?) of these at face value in the late 70s and early 80s.
One of these days, I'm going to go through all the Ikes in mint and proof sets and the brown boxes my dad and I bought from the US mint in the 1970's. A couple of the proofs have toned darkly in the peripherals, I know that much. And a few MS65's, I just haven't looked at them in depth like I have with Jefferson nickels. Hopefully I'll get an idea on what segments of the coin has problems striking up like the planet Earth, I've heard was a problem.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
One thing to remember about Eisenhower Dollars is how they were released to collectors. Coins from 1971 and 1972 weren't in Mint Sets so they were only available by the bag/roll/individual coins at a bank or in change. By contrast, coins from 1973 were only released in Mint Sets. After that they were made available in Mint Sets and through circulation channels. That affects quality and I have always felt that the TPG's graded them accordingly. The 1971-1972 coins tend to have weaker luster, the coins from 1973-1974 often have really great luster.
The series suffered bag marks and unstruck planchet flaws located primarily on Eisenhower's face and to a lesser degree on the eagle's breast and scattered in the fields. As @Braddick said early on, luster is important and not many coins are graded MS66 and higher. Generally the best coins, highest grades, have great luster and tone. Silver clads and Proofs are, of course, a different story altogether.
All of my Uncirculated silver blue packs have a luster blocking haze on the coins. I am not sure if they were that way 50 years ago or if developed from the packaging. A light dip brings the luster back, and probably bumps their grade a couple points.
Thanks to all who have kept this discussion going. I bought an album and think I may try to fill it. One thing I would like to find is some collector who worked on and finished a set 25 years ago and sold it to a dealer who does not know its value. Color me a greedy dreamer. I'll bet all the good coins not in original boxes are already in collections. I have a "Talon Head" die clash and the '72 Proof reverse raw in about MS-62. I have some Proofs with the blue haze around their rims too. Those are my favorites.
@BryceM said:
Do you think the toning (not the rainbow coin) could have given a bump to the grades?
I am not sure I would have MS70'd that coin. Here are some that have not been.
66+
67
68
That 71-S in MS68 is about unheard of, let alone the 71-P in MS66.
The color on the 71-D in superb GEM is amazing too.
All are so nice!
peacockcoins