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Should dealers use your pictures to sell a coin now in their inventory?
Torey
Posts: 135 ✭✭✭
Should dealers use your pictures to sell a coin now in their inventory?
On numerous occasions (twice this week), I have had dealers and individuals who acquired coins that I used to own- use my exact photos in their auctions. Just for the giggles I messaged one of them and complimented them on "their" slab shots. They responded with "Thank you, we strive to provide accurate photos of our coins". HAHA
I had to ponder whether I was irritated or flattered.
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If you aren't protecting the copyright, why shouldn't they be able to use whatever pictures they want?
I think you should be flattered. Your images must be good!
If the seller owns the coin why not throw the images of the coins in with it.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Would not bother me.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
I personally feel a little uncomfortable unless they ask permission. My photos have specific lighting and style to them.
Do you ever look on Ebay and see a seller you recognize solely from their photo style? Now imagine someone recognizes your photo, clicks, and sees an obsurd price and a description that stretches the truth. Not something I would want to fiddle with and would rather avoid altogether.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" Romans 6:23. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
I don’t think anyone recognizes you from a coin photo and then forms an opinion of you based on another dealer’s pricing of that coin- that seems like a real stretch and “seven degrees of Kevin Bacon” type stuff.
All alternate scenario- two individuals on MyCollect use images of my coins as their avatars AND use photos of my coins in their ads advertising their coin businesses, even though neither of them have ever owned the coins themselves. Is this wrong or unethical?
Yes, I do think that that is unethical. It's different if at some point they owned the coin but to use your coin as "Bait" doesn't seem right in my eyes
JMO
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
@jmlanzaf said:
~Well, it is not their lighting, stand, camera, lens, software.....picture....
~Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time on ebay can recognize individual sellers instantly off of their photos.
I agree- I think a dealer ad should feature coins that they have actually handled. If I saw an ad featuring an 1804 $, Brasher Doubloon and Quintuple Stella it would make me want to visit their website and view their inventory, if for nothing else just to view that class of expensive rarities.
Sounds pretty unethical to me. It's your property. You could always ask them to take them down. I know your a nice guy and that might be uncomfortable for you but I think you have every right.
Especially the use in ads. That's a big NO.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Haha you’re right I don’t like conflict- but it does rub me the wrong way. I messaged both of them and told them they must really like my coins to feature them in their ads!
It's not just unethical, it is illegal. Any photo you take belongs exclusively to you, unless you shot it for someone else under contract. Because they are using them for commercial purposes, it does not fall within the scope of fair use, so they must ask your permission to use them. If you give it, you can ask for them to credit you for the photos, or for some other form of compensation.
http://macrocoins.com
Because it is illegal.
They now own your coin. They do not own your photographs, even if they are photographs of things you no longer own.
They would have had to pay somebody (or would have had to "spend" their own precious time and skill) to take the photos for their own sale, if they hadn't stolen yours. I would think it common courtesy to not only ask for permission to use, but to offer to purchase the right to use those pictures, at a reasonable rate. If your pictures are commercial-quality, then a commercial rate ought to apply.
In general, I have no issue with "stealing" pictures off the Internet for academic, research or educational purposes (such as stealing an eBay image to post on the forum for discussion about the coin). But for outright commercial for-profit reasons, I would draw the line.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
So if I buy a coin from an auction house or dealer:
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I believe if you buy the coin and own the coin from whoever you bought the coin from, the images become yours as well as the coin
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Doesn't matter if it is their lighting, camera, etc. You can watermark the photos so it is harder for someone else to use them. If you don't, they are essentially in the public domain if used on, for example, eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-policies/images-text-policy?id=4240#:~:text=If you upload text%2C video,Rights Owner (VeRO) program.
How did they acquire your photo?
That is not necessarily true. There are fair use laws. Consider:
https://www.socialmediaexaminer.com/copyright-fair-use-and-how-it-works-for-online-images/
There's also possibly implied transfer depending on where the photo is posted. For example, use of eBay includes limited transfer of copyright:
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-policies/images-text-policy?id=4240#:~:text=If you upload text%2C video,Rights Owner (VeRO) program.
Which is why I said, specifically, if you are not protecting the copyright...
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-policies/images-text-policy?id=4240#:~:text=If you upload text%2C video,Rights Owner (VeRO) program.
It depends on how they acquired the photo which was not indicated by the OP. If the image was on his personal website, then it is illegal. If the photos were on other websites like ebay, it may not be.
@jmlanzaf Fair use Copyright only covers educational or research purposes. If they are being used for profit, it does not apply. The ebay implied transfer is interesting and I did not know that, so thanks for posting!
I will add that I certainly am not in an uproar that someone used my photos.
Yes, it is generally true that fair use didn't apply to commercial use although there are exceptions.
https://ogc.harvard.edu/pages/copyright-and-fair-use#:~:text=Other important considerations are whether,educational purposes with commercial ones.
I only raised it to point out that it is not always "illegal" to use copyrighted photos. [For example, daily on this forum.]
It would bug me tremendously, but if they asked, I’d almost certainly give them permission. I’ve provided photos to dealers a few times. As long as we’re on the same page, there’s no problem.
Just using it without any agreement is a touch on the slimy/dishonest side IMO, and for that reason alone, I’d be hesitant to do business with them in the future. Life is too short. I’m sure other people see it differently.
I generally think it shouldn’t be done without communication.
Did they buy the coin based on the picture, though? If you sent me a pic of your coin and I bought it based on that, I might feel like I could reasonably and legally use that same pic to sell to the next guy. Not sure on the rules there, but I just had that thought.
Once I sell a coin I could care less about the photos.... It's not like I'm going to use them again.
I would encourage buyers to save a copy if they wanted them.
I ask almost always. Every dealer or seller I've asked has graciously given me permission to use their images. They do own them after all and I feel it is a good way to protect future dealings with someone. It also takes only second and minimal effort, why not ask?
I was a semi professional photographer for a while and I hated when people used my photos without permission, it got so bad I was sending really low quality photos to people and they still posted them. Then I added watermarks, most people didn't how to remove them which somewhat stopped a few but others didn't care. I then would print out a few and those are what you got. That worked but people took photos of photos. In the end I have 3 photos of each subject I keep.
1) The unedited RAW file
2) A high quality .tif I use for printing
3) A low quality JPG I publish
Sadly the low quality JPG is better than 90% of the photos out there.
So yes its unethical to use some one elses photo.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I have always thought photo copyrights has gone a bit far. While you do the art you should have some protections but the actual subject matter should outweigh the clicker. Ownership of the coin should create an exception for all pictures of said coin. LeBron James should never get sued for using a picture of himself and so on. I routinely get into this with intellectual property attorneys & judges as I run in those circles. They don’t always disagree but my way is simply not how the law is structured.
In reality there is art photography, photo journalism and people clicking pictures. The law doesn’t differentiate but it should. Being a Photography mechanics technician doesn’t make you an artist anymore than a house painter should have the intellectual ownership of your house façade. Wow you adjusted the lights and exposure speed on a decent camera, doesn’t make you Bárbara Bezina, esp since digital cameras do so much of the work now. There are good and bad house painters too, doesn’t make them Rembrandt
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I don't think anyone would use my photos (usually not very good), but if they did, I wouldn't care.
No, it's illegal. At least ask the new owner, it's their coin, jmo 🙂
I would not care.
That is an interesting point. But the distinctions become rather hard to make, don't they?
The law is very clear.
It is illegal to use someone else's photos for commercial purposes without permission.
Photographers have been shit on for like forever.
They are underpaid and have their work constantly stolen from them. You can clearly see this by the attitude of some on this board.
Corporations hate paying photographers for what they are worth. Just look at PCGS Tru-Viiews and you will see a corporate fail.
It wouldn’t bother me.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
That is why the law is watered down and structured the way it is. But then, anytime you have a policy that favors low comprehension execution it encourages people to exploit it. Pictures of reality should default to the public domain. I get paying a photographer for their time and skills to shoot and edit a wedding. But then to say they own those pictures of my wedding is ridiculous. Having to back and forth contractually with a photographer (which we did) is as ridiculous as a chef saying I have to pay again the next day to consume if I take a doggy bag home. I am paying you for your time and skills, anything you produce is mine to use forever as I see fit. If one takes a photo and releases into the public domain then it should be treated like an idea released into the public domain with similar limited protections.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
As a former professional photographer, I am a little sensitive to this issue.
The internet and digital technology have made thefts and/or borrowing of images easy and commonplace.
It has never sat with me well, especially when used commercially. It would really tic me off if they never even asked permission. I’m not a professional coin photographer. My specialty was with other subjects.
If it were a coin photo of mine, and I had sold the coin, I likely wouldn’t much care if the buyer used the photo for their resale purposes or showcasing. I think it would be nice if they asked but that seldom happens these days.
For commercial purposes, on a website or in print, from someone that never even owned the coin. Unacceptable in my mind.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
The wedding example is the one I would make also. It's ridiculous to pay for their time/talent and then not own the pictures.
Many wedding photographers make a significant portion of their income on additional prints from events.
Oftentimes, different rates can be negotiated if the rights to the originals go to the purchasing party.
This is sometimes done and just needs to be discussed ahead of time. Some less established photographers routinely give the master originals to the clients as they don’t want to deal with the hassles.
A concern of theirs, in addition to lost revenue, is that if they lose control of the print, it could be poorly done and seen to be a reflection of their work. The quality of the printing is a huge part of the creative process.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
They don’t hate paying, they just know that they don’t have to because there is millions of anybodies that can do it. Few market scenarios actually justify a ROI paying up for premium talent vs avg talent. Most places good photos and rock bottom prices are superior to most bottom lines than slightly better photos that require exponentially more knowhow to produce.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I would be pretty frustrated, and tell them to take it down.
Photography is a tough skill to replicate. Why should you be able to steal my hard work as your own?
The exception to this is when you’ve purchased my work.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
Your belief is incorrect.
The vast majority of photos posted here are covered by fair use doctrine. Maybe not as much on the BST though, I don't know.
What do you think our hosts would say if you posted a coin for sale on the BST, with photos that were obviously taken from the auction where you just purchased the coin? Commercial use, not fair use. Copyright infringement unless you have written authorization.
http://macrocoins.com
So where do we draw the line then? I had assumed that most dealers who sell a coin with nice pictures don’t mind when the purchaser of said coin uses said pictures. Is it ok to use the photos to show off on social media and other forums, but not ok to use to advertise a sale?
After all, the dealer makes a profit which is justified by their time and expertise, and isn’t the photo of the coin included in the “time and expertise” package? I’m not that good of a photographer, but if I was I don’t think I’d take issue with a client using photos of a coin that they purchased where I’ve already made my money. Just like the client who purchased the coin likely takes no issue with the dealer using that photo for marketing and advertising purposes in the future.
In this specific instance, I would expect a professional auction house to take their own photos rather than using a clients, and I can certainly understand the OP frustration here. However, I can’t say my opinion would be the same for Joe the collector who uses Doug Winter’s photo to sell his double eagle on the BST.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I like to use that phrase : "Photos courtesy PCGS". But if they were yours, it's common sense to ask permission or at least give acknowledgement, republishing. The height of laziness. Be proud . Charge higher prices !
I am an artist and release my creations into the wild and never profit from downstream revenue generation!
No, to the question.
I draw the line at this: my photos, you need my permission to use them in any capacity.
You can’t post them, share them, do anything with them unless I’ve allowed you to. In fact, all of my images have an embedded copyright that states as such.
Young Numismatist, Coin Photographer.
It can be tricky.... it all depends on whether there is a contract. OR.... terms and conditions that you 'agree' to when you do business with, especially over the internet. Terms and conditions very commonly specify they own the images that you post on their site or send them.
When you post photo on ebay.... that photo is no longer yours. They 'own' that photo, and actually sell the photo to other parties. Multiple times I have seen my posted items show up Worthpoint site. I now make sure.... that I watermark some of the photos of items I post on ebay. As far as I know... none of those have shown up on Worthpoint.
Or at least I 'assume' Worthpoint is purchasing ebay data.... surely not just intentionally copying the images for their website!
But are you speaking from the perspective of being a photographer in the capacity of your current business model, or a coin dealer? As I understand it, a client pays you to take images of their coins, to do with them as they wish presumably, right? If the client pays you to take the photos of their coin, are the images only yours, are they the clients, or both? Does the exchange of money in return for the images not qualify as “permission”?
Alternatively, how would you approach that if you were a dealer? Say for example you’re selling a coin with your exceptional photos. Would you tell the collector that they can pay an additional $5 or $10 to be able to use the images, or would you just have the “Flyingal photo package” padded into the profit margin on the coin?
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
Ok, so this answers my question to a degree. According to the fair use doctrine, there is a line that can be drawn and many of the situations where a client would be using a dealer/photographer's image are covered in the client's favor, excluding the sale of the coin.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I am waiting for the day the auction house says ...
Our commission is 10-20% but... if you want to use the photos of the raw coin you bought from us, you need to pay an additional $10/per.