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1954 Unopened Wax Box

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  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lahmejoon said:
    You're focusing way too much on the concept of the box. For those of us who collect these things and have done homework, the reality is he is authenticating the packs.

    If I put together a Frankenstein box of 1985 Topps and provided an empty box, if he authenticates the packs, then he wraps them in a box and the label says 1985 Topps Unopened Box or something to that effect. The same applies here. The label does not say from a sealed case, or untampered box becuase he cannot attest to that. What he can attest to is this is a complete box of 1954 Topps, which means it contains a full box of untampered packs in an original box. Eventhough the thought is that this isn't a Frankenstein box, it could be a Frankenstein box and his policy for notating the box is consistent with this.

    dont you agree that in this case, the whole is worth more than the sum of its parts? this item is worth more than 36 individual wax packs. it is so scarce because of the actual box. it is a whole different animal than a very common 80s box. this appears to be such a unicorn BECAUSE of the box. It seems that Nat was given some sort of indication that steve believes these could be original to the box even though he does not notate that as such on the box.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:
    @craig44

    With all due respect, I think you are off base by requiring that Steve has studied other “boxes” like this in order to competently authenticate this one. Authenticating the box is basically authenticating the packs, and there have been plenty of these packs around. Assuming you believe that Steve has the expertise to authenticate these packs, what can you envision going wrong in authenticating the box?

    the box is the reason this "find" is such a big deal. with enough money, I am sure someone could round up 36 nickel packs. what makes this a unicorn is the box. I am saying that the actual topps/opc box is so rare that no one has been able to study enough examples to become an "expert" on them.

    This could very easily be a Chinese fake. the problem is, no one has been able to see enough known authentic boxes to say yes or no with any authority.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • HarnessracingHarnessracing Posts: 395 ✭✭✭

    Lol, your way off base
    He authenticated the individual packs in the box not the box itself. Can’t you see that? If you send a 1986 Fleer Basketball box he’s going to authenticate the pack and if 36 are good he wraps it as a box. Of course no one’s seen 54 boxes as a whole but he’s done 54 packs

  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 2,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tod41 said:

    @mrhighgrade said:
    I am not really buying the "stolen box story" . First of all, kids don't steal boxes, they steal packs. Packs are easy, you grab a pack and put it in your pocket. Where is a kid gonna hide a box? Also, once the mom found out, she decided to put away in the attic?? How about, teaching your kid not to steal and making him return it back to the store.

    Agreed. It's a bogus story. And if that is a lie, what else might be a lie? If BBCE Exchange ends up getting duped again, it's going to kill their business and call into question the entire unopened pack grading industry.

    No idea if the story is true or not - just passing along what was heard at the booth. Reality is the story has nothing to do with the box being legit or not. Would you rather have a great story and a sketchy looking box, or a clean box and an iffy story. Too many people being skeptics and haters all around. Looks like possibly a neat find and if it is legit more power to them. If not what have the negative posters lost in all this - financially or reputation?🤔

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @grote15 said:
    One of the positive aspects to the fallout following the Pokemon case is that Steve now requires that the case be opened in order to inspect its contents before authenticating the product. It is far easier (imho) to fake the outer tape and seal of a case than it would be the fake the contents of said case. Steve has been authenticating wax for the better part of 35 years now and has handled tons of packs from the 1950s over that span. He is most certainly well versed with examining the attributes of sealed packs from this era.

    I'd also assert that it is absurd to believe that someone could possibly "round up 36 packs" to construct a box like this one. Any experienced vintage unopened collector would understand just how far-fetched, in fact impossible, such a task would be. These packs had been sitting for so many years inside the box before Steve checked them that they had formed the telltale "stickiness" between layers that you will encounter when pulling packs from an original box that has in fact remained undisturbed for decades.

    unless there was a way for counterfeiters to replicate that "telltale stickiness between layers"

    remember, before the whole trimming fiasco, it was "common knowledge" that rough cuts were certainly authentic, from the factory. we now know those cuts can be replicated by trimmers. The fakers are getting better and better. with this much money at stake, there is a lot of motivation to produce fakes.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Harnessracing said:
    Lol, your way off base
    He authenticated the individual packs in the box not the box itself. Can’t you see that? If you send a 1986 Fleer Basketball box he’s going to authenticate the pack and if 36 are good he wraps it as a box. Of course no one’s seen 54 boxes as a whole but he’s done 54 packs

    what makes this item special then?

    it is because there are 36 individual packs IN A BOX.

    what makes unopened packs special?

    it is because there are 4 individual cards IN A WRAPPER.

    it is the whole package that makes this special. So, if the box is not legit, and we do not know that it is, this is just 36 single packs. not as special.

    that is the whole point. if the actual box is not legit, this is not nearly the find people thought it was

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • grote15grote15 Posts: 29,690 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @grote15 said:
    One of the positive aspects to the fallout following the Pokemon case is that Steve now requires that the case be opened in order to inspect its contents before authenticating the product. It is far easier (imho) to fake the outer tape and seal of a case than it would be the fake the contents of said case. Steve has been authenticating wax for the better part of 35 years now and has handled tons of packs from the 1950s over that span. He is most certainly well versed with examining the attributes of sealed packs from this era.

    I'd also assert that it is absurd to believe that someone could possibly "round up 36 packs" to construct a box like this one. Any experienced vintage unopened collector would understand just how far-fetched, in fact impossible, such a task would be. These packs had been sitting for so many years inside the box before Steve checked them that they had formed the telltale "stickiness" between layers that you will encounter when pulling packs from an original box that has in fact remained undisturbed for decades.

    unless there was a way for counterfeiters to replicate that "telltale stickiness between layers"

    remember, before the whole trimming fiasco, it was "common knowledge" that rough cuts were certainly authentic, from the factory. we now know those cuts can be replicated by trimmers. The fakers are getting better and better. with this much money at stake, there is a lot of motivation to produce fakes.

    Sure there is a lot of motivation. That's why we entrust the authentication process to companies like PSA and individuals like Steve Hart. As the National just illustrated with record crowds and transactions, the hobby is alive and well, due in large part to their efforts.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
  • RonSportscardsRonSportscards Posts: 942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Meh. Millionaires and their problems."
    -a $32 card collector

  • dan89dan89 Posts: 490 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Vern I mean Craig 44. With all due respect. You have no idea what you are talking about.

  • handymanhandyman Posts: 5,347 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 31, 2023 7:26PM

    I want that wax box.
    Awesome Awesome Awesome.

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,045 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KendallCat said:

    @mintonlypls said:
    Keith …

    Any news on where was box found or had someone had it for all these years unknowingly?

    I happened to be standing at the BBCE booth when a story was being told by a gentlemen to Steve today - assume it was in regards to the box. Supposedly the person who brought it in stole the box from a grocery store when he was a young boy, and when the mom found out she took the box from him and out them away up in the attic. She forgot they were there and only when she passed away did they discover them when cleaning out her house - if they were not taken by the man when he was young they would never have survived this long,

    I'm surprised she did not promptly return the box to the store. And wonder what the boys penalty for the theft was. Crime does pay?

    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • vols1vols1 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭

    Is the Canada set only series 1? Or is it all series in the box?

  • coinspackscoinspacks Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭✭

    It is the mastro box from years ago. That means it's been authenticated twice...once from gai and once from bbce.
    ..seems as legit as we can hope.

    I ended up with one of the single graded gai packs from back then.

  • perkdogperkdog Posts: 30,600 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 4:16AM

    @brad31 said:
    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @KendallCat said:

    @mintonlypls said:
    Keith …

    Any news on where was box found or had someone had it for all these years unknowingly?

    I happened to be standing at the BBCE booth when a story was being told by a gentlemen to Steve today - assume it was in regards to the box. Supposedly the person who brought it in stole the box from a grocery store when he was a young boy, and when the mom found out she took the box from him and out them away up in the attic. She forgot they were there and only when she passed away did they discover them when cleaning out her house - if they were not taken by the man when he was young they would never have survived this long,

    I'm surprised she did not promptly return the box to the store. And wonder what the boys penalty for the theft was. Crime does pay?

    I'm surprised people actually believe the storyline, sure it could be true but the boy went his entire life without asking his mother for the cards ever again and it was just forgotten about by everyone? In an attic for decades without anyone coming across them to do any repairs to the house or moving stuff? IDK crazier stuff has happened and it could be true but I'd be inclined to not believe that.

    Regardless I think some of you guys are being too hard on @craig44

    He is well within his right to question the box, especially since it's already bought and paid for by a satisfied customer, it's not like he is attempting to raise eyebrows during a live auction.

    I don't have any skin in the game, I've never bought or even spoke with Steve but I know his reputation is rock solid with a cult like following.

    With the amount of fraud involved in the hobby past and present everyone is entitled to their opinions regardless if they have a trimmed graded 10 Mantle Rookie or a stack of creased cards with an elastic band wrapped around them.

  • CakesCakes Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @brad31 said:
    Since ‘54 has gum - only 4 cards a pack - one has gum stain, one has wax stain so at best two nice cards per pack. I know the value is on the box itself as an item - but a significant part of the value has to be on the chance you decide to get crazy and open it. The dream of pristine Aarons and Kalines and Bankses. Very cool item that would lose monumental value if ever opened due to the gum.

    Great point. > @Harnessracing said:

    I was about 7-8 yrs old and stole a 3 pack tray from the local Woolworth’s . My mother took me and the tray back to the store, made me apologize and whipped my ass from the front of the store to the car. Parents were able to do that back in the 60’s. Never stole anything again

    Same, but it was pencils from Dart Drug in the late 70's.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
  • GroceryRackPackGroceryRackPack Posts: 3,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 7:04AM

    @brad31 said:
    Since ‘54 has gum - only 4 cards a pack - one has gum stain, one has wax stain so at best two nice cards per pack. I know the value is on the box itself as an item - but a significant part of the value has to be on the chance you decide to get crazy and open it. The dream of pristine Aarons and Kalines and Bankses. Very cool item that would lose monumental value if ever opened due to the gum.

    hey Brad...
    I'm with ya on the gum stain on those 54's... :)

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    Anyone know if these 1954 packs have the OPC Canada roller seal or the Brooklyn NY seal ?

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

  • Copyboy1Copyboy1 Posts: 478 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    it is the whole package that makes this special. So, if the box is not legit, and we do not know that it is, this is just 36 single packs. not as special.

    I get what you're saying. It's like a classic car that's all original with matching numbers, versus one that's been pieced together with various factory parts. The former will be significantly more valuable than the latter.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 9:46AM

    @Copyboy1 said:

    @craig44 said:

    it is the whole package that makes this special. So, if the box is not legit, and we do not know that it is, this is just 36 single packs. not as special.

    I get what you're saying. It's like a classic car that's all original with matching numbers, versus one that's been pieced together with various factory parts. The former will be significantly more valuable than the latter.

    We all know and understand that, but it isn’t unique to this box. The same can be said for any box. While it is usually visibly clear whether a box is original, without being FASC Steve doesn’t have any way of stating with certainty that a box is original. But yes, this is why FASC boxes go at a huge premium.

    From what I have heard of this box, I’m sure it is an original box, and inspecting the packs would make that obvious.

  • pab1969pab1969 Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:

    @Copyboy1 said:

    @craig44 said:

    it is the whole package that makes this special. So, if the box is not legit, and we do not know that it is, this is just 36 single packs. not as special.

    I get what you're saying. It's like a classic car that's all original with matching numbers, versus one that's been pieced together with various factory parts. The former will be significantly more valuable than the latter.

    We all know and understand that, but it isn’t unique to this box. The same can be said for any box. While it is usually visibly clear whether a box is original, without being FASC Steve doesn’t have any way of stating with certainty that a box is original. But yes, this is why FASC boxes go at a huge premium.

    From what I have heard of this box, I’m sure it is an original box, and inspecting the packs would make that obvious.

    I am a neutral party on this topic but I am confused. How would inspecting the packs make it obvious that the box was original and legit if the packs were not originally from this box but were from another box or "Frankenstein" into the new box?

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 10:39AM

    Obviously there is no way to tell if the box itself originally came with the group of packs. If the box were totally trashed, it could be replaced to make the full box more appealing. That is way less likely with a rare box like this of course.

  • 19591959 Posts: 626 ✭✭✭

    If the box is fake or a box from many other 54 boxes (since each pack is legit) . Would there be more than 4 cards in the packs if the the packs were inserted from Topps USA.? Seems you could weigh each pack to see if some were Canada wraped or 5 card USA wraped.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1959 said:
    If the box is fake or a box from many other 54 boxes (since each pack is legit) . Would there be more than 4 cards in the packs if the the packs were inserted from Topps USA.? Seems you could weigh each pack to see if some were Canada wraped or 5 card USA wraped.

    The wrappers are actually different, so no need to weigh.

  • CakesCakes Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the next 50 years someone will find a similar 1950's Unopened Wax Box in an attic and it will go for moon money. I can only imagine how hard it will be to authenticate then. The Black Swamp find was over a hundred years old when it happened.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
  • craig44craig44 Posts: 11,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:

    @brad31 said:
    @BLUEJAYWAY said:

    @KendallCat said:

    @mintonlypls said:
    Keith …

    Any news on where was box found or had someone had it for all these years unknowingly?

    I happened to be standing at the BBCE booth when a story was being told by a gentlemen to Steve today - assume it was in regards to the box. Supposedly the person who brought it in stole the box from a grocery store when he was a young boy, and when the mom found out she took the box from him and out them away up in the attic. She forgot they were there and only when she passed away did they discover them when cleaning out her house - if they were not taken by the man when he was young they would never have survived this long,

    I'm surprised she did not promptly return the box to the store. And wonder what the boys penalty for the theft was. Crime does pay?

    I'm surprised people actually believe the storyline, sure it could be true but the boy went his entire life without asking his mother for the cards ever again and it was just forgotten about by everyone? In an attic for decades without anyone coming across them to do any repairs to the house or moving stuff? IDK crazier stuff has happened and it could be true but I'd be inclined to not believe that.

    Regardless I think some of you guys are being too hard on @craig44

    He is well within his right to question the box, especially since it's already bought and paid for by a satisfied customer, it's not like he is attempting to raise eyebrows during a live auction.

    I don't have any skin in the game, I've never bought or even spoke with Steve but I know his reputation is rock solid with a cult like following.

    With the amount of fraud involved in the hobby past and present everyone is entitled to their opinions regardless if they have a trimmed graded 10 Mantle Rookie or a stack of creased cards with an elastic band wrapped around them.

    thanks perk. when one questions the cult of Steve, you have to know trouble will follow. thankfully, I have thick skin!

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

  • mintonlyplsmintonlypls Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 1:31PM

    This latest find rekindles my dream that high series 1952 Topps baseball cards dumped in the Atlantic Ocean will eventually wash ashore somewhere…

    mint_only_pls
  • CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 486 ✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2023 7:33PM

    WIki says OPC entered into a marketing agreement with Topps in 1958. Then began promoting annual trading card sets in Canada. For what wiki is worth anyway. Maybe tomorrow it will say 1954.

    Even thow this product may have been printed in Canada, it's still Topps. Topps probably just hired the printing facility in canada. Not quite the same thing as it being an OPC box. OPC sets tend to have a totally different card list. Topps probably used a number of different facilities every year it printed cards.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I noticed that 1958 reference on Wikipedia too. No idea whether there is any merit to it but the wrappers clearly say they were made by OPC.

  • RedHeart54RedHeart54 Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2023 5:42AM

    I have a book called The O-Pee-Chee Hockey Card Story. No it does not specifically mention the 1954 baseball set but according to the book it’s clear that prior to 1961 OPC only distributed its cards, they did not print them (despite the label stating they were “made” in London, Ontario).

    The 1958 Topps/OPC agreement reference probably came from that book although it was for the 1957-58 Topps hockey set. (Topps made and distributed the 1954-55 hockey set. There were no more Topps hockey sets until 1957.)

    It’s interesting that it would be another 10 years before OPC got into baseball cards again. Presumably the ‘54 set didn’t sell well or were made for a very small test market.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is there some reference that spells all of this out? Because there was definitely a similar baseball arrangement with OPC in 1963 and 1964. I’m just not sure if there was one in any of the previous years after 1954.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears from this old Net 54 post that there were similar Canadian made packs in at least 1955. This poster also asserts that only 50 cards were used in the 1954 Canadian packs, not including major stars? Certainly a rather important value determinant if true, but I haven’t found any formal reference stating that. Is there some definitive consensus on exactly what is in these 1954 Canadian packs?

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2, 2023 7:29AM

    TCDB says they contain only cards 1-50. So some major stars (Williams, Jackie Robinson, Berra). So if this is well known it obviously affects the value of the box.

    https://www.tcdb.com/Checklist.cfm/sid/140837

  • secretstashsecretstash Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭✭

    @PaulMaul said:
    It appears from this old Net 54 post that there were similar Canadian made packs in at least 1955. This poster also asserts that only 50 cards were used in the 1954 Canadian packs, not including major stars? Certainly a rather important value determinant if true, but I haven’t found any formal reference stating that. Is there some definitive consensus on exactly what is in these 1954 Canadian packs?

    Interesting, but if the packs were sealed in 1954, I wouldn't expect that assumption to be possible.

  • PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,874 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @secretstash

    Which assumption wouldn’t be possible?

  • 4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    Card stock, centering, blade cuts, and the way the packs were sealed are the only difference or is there more ?

    I know 71 opc had the players face on the reverse and Topps didn’t.

    All one has to do was look at the way the 1954 packs were sealed to tell if it was made in London or Brooklyn.

    Forum members on ignore
    Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
    daltex

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