Do we worry too much about price?

IrishMike · January 17, 2003 9:15AM

One of the fortunate things about being a banker for over thirty years is the opportunity to meet and help people from all walks life. For a short time I left the profession to make a fotune in private business. The money was good but I missed that feeling of going home every night knowing that I had helped someone either to buy a business, add to a business to hire more people, or to help that young couple buy their first home or the successful medical professional but that second home in Northern Michigan or Southern Fla.

Coin collecting has been a hobby of mine since the mid fifties and sometimes a passion. I have seen some incredible coins in my lifetime and enjoy just the spectre of examing them. To me that has been just as rewarding as having owned and owning some beautiful coinage. All of this leads to my point, shouldn't we just admire them and not spend so much time wondering about what someone paid for them. If price is the driving factor in why you collect or the most important factor, then might you not be setting yourself up for financial pain. I still plan on buying the coins I like, but not to the detriment of some of the other dreams that I hope will come to fruition. Price is a great topic to talk about, but I hope it never comes the driving force in this hobby, least of all something that creates envy and causes collectors to accuse others of elitism. I can tell you that some of the nicest people I have met as clients in the banking business were worth lots of money and unless you knew their financials, you would never suspect their wealth. I think the same is true in this hobby.

I hope my point comes out in this thread and perhaps gives others pause for thought.

tjkillian · January 17, 2003 9:40AM

There are all kinds of collectors. There have been threads on what is going to happen to one's coins once they die, i.e. they intend to keep them for the duration. That kind of mentality makes me think that the person is into coins and is not as interested in the money. I, for one, hope that coins prices drop so that I can get more. How nice it would be to buy a MS-63BN Chain cent for $100,00 knowing it would only be worth $1.00 when I died, just to be able to own, share and admire it.

Tom

dorkkarl · January 17, 2003 9:55AM

yes.

i've stated it before in other threads, it bears repeating. the wisest coin dealer i ever knew once gave me the best advice that i ever got:

"if you like a coin, if you really REALLY want it, then it is impossible to pay too much for it"

in my experience, the most successful collectors recognize the remarkably lucid truth of that statement.

K S

IrishMike · January 17, 2003 10:08AM

karl couldn't agree with you more. At FUN I had no intention of buying anything but raw copper. However I spotted the prettiest blue and red 1880 IHC in mint state that I had ever seen. Slabbed or not I had to have it. Did I pay over sheet on it, heck yes. Do I care heck no. It's all mine.

Tom I couldn't agree with you more, you find two of those chain cents, let me know.

DesertLizard · January 17, 2003 10:13AM

IrishMike,

Price is important if you are a dealer or hobby dealer to support your "habit".

As a collector, price can be important if you are sinking serious money into rarities. "Serious money" means different things to different people. To me it would be foolish to spend more than $15k on a coin which has no appreciation potential unless you have a worth many many times that figure. Most people do not.

Everyone is different and their needs are diverse. Personally I don't need to make a "return" on my coins but I would hope they don't lose too much value. I try to buy smart because I know the price to sell back to a dealer will be 30-40% less than what I paid. So price is important but return is not.

Sadly, some mistakenly hope their coins will be something to retire on and price is critical. They should not be buying coins!

Pushkin · January 17, 2003 10:28AM

Mike,

I admire your idealism and I think your heart and thoughts are in the right place. Perhaps I don't fully understand your thread, but this is my thinking. A relatively small group of very wealthy collectors is driving much of the market. The Registry Set certainly has strong tones of elitism, and the vast majority of collectors simply cannot afford even one really beautiful, high-end coin. How many average collectors are treated to the perks of the moneyed collectors by dealers? How many of the average collectors can take $10,000 coins home on consignment for a week or two, how many moneyed collectors are regularly opening up their collections to the public?

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying they should or that they are bad people for not doing so, but I don't see it happing very often – not great outpouring of philanthropy – no starting numismatic museums. The egos are alive and well.

There are some fine dealers who will give the "average Joe" much the same attention as they give the serious, wealthy collector, but they are many who won't give the average collector the time of day. (Not to imply that this isn't true in any profession or hobby).

Perhaps dreaming of an ideal world is a fine pastime for those who can afford it, but I think many collectors struggle to buy and keep the average coins they have, and the rapidly rising prices hurts them the most.

I respect your opinion and your thoughts, but I'm a bit more cynical than you are, I guess. Not being concerned about price is more the luxury of the wealthy than the reality of the average working person/collector.

Just my thoughts - perhaps I misunderstood the main point of your thread. Would you feel the same if you couldn't have afforded that cool IHC?

Regards,

Pushkin

IrishMike · January 17, 2003 10:42AM

Pushkin I would never advocate people spending non-discretionary income in large amounts without worrying about the value of what they purchase. One of the points I was attempting to make was that maybe we think the most important part of this hobby we enjoy is what we paid for the coin and not so much the coin itself. The price should not be an end on to itself. Also is it important that we paid too little for the coin, i.e. some collectors seem reticent to buy a coin unless they perceive it as a steal for them.

Crashtestfixer · January 17, 2003 1:22PM

Pushkin,,,,,,,,,,,,
good one!!!!!!!!!!!
got ta be for ones own satisfaction, but hope ta not loose ones own hinny along the way. Some of the stuff out there just strikes your heart in a way;" as a first love"...WHAT VALUE DO YA PUT ON IT? will it be forever? sure feels good (great) to have touched it

Alan....mile hi city Co.

clw54 · January 17, 2003 1:29PM

Sometimes it seems we lose track of the "coolness factor" of a common date Morgan or a Walking Liberty half a family member had.

kaleidoscopic · January 17, 2003 1:39PM

Clw 54............not me. Probably not MadMonk either. Kscope

stman · January 17, 2003 1:45PM

I am going to post a quote Gsaguy said once and I'm sure he doesn't mind, " If you see a piece that sets itself far apart from it's peers, you better find a way to obtain it before (or) someone else will."

I have found this to be true, and if I can afford something I like and have to step up to own it I will.

baccaruda · January 17, 2003 1:52PM

IMO price is half the game - of course you worry about price.

We don't design the coin, or make the coin, or age the coin, or have anything to do with the coin - we simply buy it. Therefore, getting a good deal is half the battle. Wise purchases, foresight; it's half the fun of collecting them.

If I had a bottomless pit of money to spend on coins, then what would be the challenge? I can tell a beautiful, historic coin just as well as the big boys can. I can tell if a coin's pricetag is high as good as anyone. The ones with the fat wallets aren't necessarily any better or knowledgable colletors than the little guy - they can just own the coins that make them look it.

shylock · January 17, 2003 9:16PM

Price is a reality we all have to deal with, but I agree that it sometimes clouds our perspective the same way grade labels do.

IrishMike, Boiler78 and myself spent a lot of time at FUN looking over an incredible set of MS64RD Indian cents on display. That's a very tough grade level to find attractive coins in this series, yet this gentleman managed to over many years. It will never get the publicity the million dollar collections do, but from a pure collecting standpoint it was as impressive a set as I've ever seen. I really admire that guy.

boiler78 · January 17, 2003 9:52PM

Paul
What impressed me about that set was how well matched it was. There were many potential upgrades but the owner seemed reluctant to "mess" the set up by upgrading 25% of the coins to 65rd.

That guy was a true collector in dealers disguise.

MadMonk · January 17, 2003 9:56PM

<< <i>Clw 54............not me. Probably not MadMonk either. Kscope >>

You betcha. My dad and I spent a lot of time together with coins. I can see and feel him looking me in the eyes to see if I was "getting it" He loved the hobby, and he did well with it too. He bought what he liked. Sometimes, he would look for a particularly nice example of a coin, turning down a lot, until one "grabbed him" Then he would lay down some long green to have it.
I can think of sometimes more than retail even, cause he knew the coin, what was most likely available, and how often a REALLY nice one came along. And you know what? He, and I too, never sold or regretted those "expensive pieces" but the ones that werent up to par, we hated, sold, lost money, etc.
In honor of him, I will finish his unfinished sets. He always told me, "if you need the money, your nuts not to sell, but be wise" That's another whole book!

1jester · January 17, 2003 10:08PM

This might be slightly off-topic, but oh well! One of the most fascinating things about coin collecting is the ability to see (and if you're so lucky, to be able to hold) fantastic coins. Unless you're super-rich, you can only hope to be able to see most coins in a museum. One of the most exciting and most memorable events in my life was my visit to the Smithsonian's coin collection when I was 8 years old. I was astounded and awed. Normal collectors can only dream of owning even one of such coins. However, most of us are content to dream, and do research, and struggle to buy a few of the coins we'd like to have. Being able to see collections in museums (or privately-held) is the most we can usually hope for. However, how many people with nice coins are willing to display them for others to see? How many of us have such coins anyway? How much would it cost to try to display them for public viewing? The internet perhaps makes it a bit easier and safer to display our coins, but then the viewer can only see the scans, rather than be in close physical proximity to the coin. Nonetheless, that's better than not seeing the coins at all. Internet galleries are a good idea, I think, even though many people might still be reluctant to display their coins over the internet, since the site may be hacked into, and the physical whereabouts of the coins might be discovered.

Twowood · January 17, 2003 10:34PM

Mike; I understand what you're saying. I recently fell in love with Miss Britannia of the British 1998-2002 2 Pd silver variety. I just HAD to have them...So I bought them. Not a big investment but every time I look at them I 'm more proud of myself for having had the good judgement to buy them.
Twowood

Fairlaneman · January 17, 2003 10:36PM

Trying to get the best price for any item a person buys, IMO, is just a inbred instinct that is acquired through the adolescent years of ones life. Some people stick with this instinct through thier whole life time with little reguard to the wealth they have. Sure it may look to some that the person is flaunting his wealth or lack of wealth with purchases but really I do not think this is ths case. The price he pays is just what the person really thinks it is worth to himself. So with this said I do not think price is the driving factor for most people when it comes to buying a coin. Basically they will just pay what they think the coin is worth to themselves with little or no reguard to what people say it is worth. Of course there are exceptions to this that fall into the Must Have at any cost catagory.

Calling a person a Elitist just because of the amount that has been spent on his collection is really absurd, and again this is just my opinion. Really how can one classify a person without really meeting the person in real life. I just do not see how this can be done just by reading what they may have to say on a Forumn like this. Sometimes, and we really know this, to much is read into a post or posts that a person may make here and not enough attention is paid to the persons real intent for creating the post.

Anyway collect what you want, pay what you want, do not worry about what others think, enjoy the hobby to your fullest and above all enjoy life. The ride is to short and could end at any time.

As Mike said I hope the point comes across.

Ken

ms71 · January 17, 2003 11:57PM

I can't see price as much of a divisive force for those who enjoy the hobby as a hobby. I know I won't ever be able to own the "big ticket" items, and have chosen an area of interest where I can afford a few nice coins a year. Other than that, it's all about buying all the books I can find and talking to all the knowledgable people I can find. I don't buy a coin with an eye toward its potential increase in value. To me it would be nice if they at least hold their value, but I will enjoy them either way. Each acquisition is weeks in the saving & planning, and often involves "trading in" a coin to be able to afford a new one. As long as there's interesting material to study and re-study between acquisitions, they don't have to come that often. The new trend of collecting as competition (the registry phenomenon) is so completely outside my approach to the hobby that I can't understand it, except to recognize it as a stroke of genius for whoever came up with it at the grading services. I would never have imagined its impact. To me I guess it comes down to your approach: is it a hobby, a competition, or an investment vehicle (or some combination of them)? To me it's a great hobby, and a "hot" market is definitely undesirable from my perspective.

IrishMike · January 18, 2003 12:06AM

Several good points. The elitist comment I made was a result of some comments in other threads. Someone should be considered elitist because they collect expensive coins. More power to them, I just don't feel that collecting should be driven by price alone.

Paul, execllent point about Dino's collection of 64 Red IHC. It was one of the highlights of FUN to see his collection. Boiler is correct too, several of those coins would be no brainer upgrades. If I had to decide to limit my collection to only his set or a few of the monster coins I saw it would be a tough decision. In fact it's one that many of us face, we just can't have them all. Well stated that he has captured the essence of collecting.

FrattLaw · January 18, 2003 1:03AM

The only time price is a factor in much of life is on only 2 days -- the day you buy something and then the day you sell it. Otherwise no one really thinks about price.

Take this test, ask yourself these questions -- How much did your refrigerator cost? Your couch? Your car?
Personally, I have no idea and the same is mostly true of my coins. I do keep receipts for tax/insurance purposes, but I never look at them, unless I'm selling a coin.

Worrying about price too much I think just ruins a hobby or any other transaction for that matter.

Michael

Lakesammman · January 18, 2003 1:06AM

Agree with the above...

It drives me nuts when some one says..."cool coin, how much was it?". It becomes obvious that they have no appreciation for the beauty or history behind it.

The most satisfying portion of collecting is the "cerebral" part.....pimping knowledgable dealers for what they know....sharing original, controversial perspectives with the experts....studying die states and production methods.....trying to figure out why differentiating MS from proof in the 1856 FE's is so difficult.....teaching newbies the nuances.....figuring out how varietes were created.....discovering new varieties.....learning coin photography.......sharing cool photos with Shylock and others.....learning about grading subtleties....meeting and getting to know forum members.....teaming with another collector to come up with a educational display for the ANA....learning what turns people on about series I know nothing about.....etc.

Because the monetary value of a coin is becoming less important to me, numismatics is becoming allot more fun.

ANACONDA · January 18, 2003 1:45AM

It is my opinion that collectors who are putting together a date set of something almost always focus too much on what grade it is and what it costs as opposed to what it looks like. "Filling the hole" is the objective as opposed to collecting beautiful coins.

And the difference, aesthetically speaking, between an average looking coin and a gorgeous coin can be enormous.

I encourage people to collect by type. Most coins are readily available so you can focus on the beauty as opposed to "oh, gee, that sure is an ugley whatever, but boy it's cheap and i can't remember seeing another one in a green label pcgs holder with all four stacking tabs present - i'd better buy it!"

Do we worry too much about price?

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