Maybe Russell or another member can help with this. I'm seeking some background on this particular souvenir card -- when it was issued and for what show. The Peter Maverick engraved note shown is likely the oldest intaglio plate ever reprinted on a card, but we know little about this one. Does it look familiar to any SPMC members out there?
I got into Obsoletes few years ago and managed to pick up a handful of notes here and there.. One of the things I enjoy most about them is so many of them have multiple portraits on them and this 7-Portrait note is no exception :-)
@gsalex said:
Before Texas obsoletes got expensive, I picked up this one from 1840, as representative note. The cut cancel is a little off-putting, but I probably couldn't have afforded it otherwise.
Love this!
Hoping to score a redback at an upcoming show .
Another one of my faves.. though, my primary consideration is whether or not I love the design, so essentially all of the notes in my collection are "one of my faves"
Many obsoletes are very rare and command substantial prices. I used to have a bunch of NJ Obsoletes picked up from eBay when it first came out. Got to appreciate their designs, scarcity, and demand. Did well with them.
For pricing on obsoletes refer to the book by Don C Kelly.
Not in perfect condition but I'd never seen one before and have had a difficult time finding another.. It features our first two U.S. Presidents, George Washington and John Adams as well as Zachary Taylor who was the current president at the time (March 1849 - July 1850) and I assume that since he was only in office for about a year and a half, this is the only note he ever appeared on and they probably didn’t issue them for all that long (which may be why I’d never seen one before)
It’s also the oldest note I have now as it’s dated 1849 and might be the most delicate note as well. It feels like it was printed on tissue paper.
Here's another note with the vignette of Zachary Taylor. The Long Island Bank of Brooklyn (Haxby NY-325-A5). This is an altered $5 note from the Government Stock Bank of Ann Arbor, MI. Haxby MI-40-G12.
Marty
US Obsoletes esp NJ, WEB Notes,
National Iron Bank of Morristown (#1113) and Irish Currency
@SkippyT said:
Not in perfect condition but I'd never seen one before and have had a difficult time finding another.. It features our first two U.S. Presidents, George Washington and John Adams as well as Zachary Taylor who was the current president at the time (March 1849 - July 1850) and I assume that since he was only in office for about a year and a half, this is the only note he ever appeared on and they probably didn’t issue them for all that long (which may be why I’d never seen one before)
It’s also the oldest note I have now as it’s dated 1849 and might be the most delicate note as well. It feels like it was printed on tissue paper.
I'll take this as an excuse to trot out a proof of the lazy deuce, by itself. Lazy 1, 3, and 5's were also engraved, but I've only seen the 2 and 5 actually used.
Dog and safe vignettes are a common theme on obsoletes as well as this check.
I found the title on this ebay item amusing:
"Bank Check Union Trust Company 1874 Dog W/ Key By Radio"
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
Yes, I agree. The Haxby listing shows a picture of a counterfeit from the same plate as your (note the ink blob, a plate defect, under the "NK" of "BANK".) However Haxby lists both genuine and counterfeit notes as being known and has placed this picture of a counterfeit where the genuine should appear. The photo should be under the listing for the counterfeit, not above. This minor error in the Haxby listing shouldn't have confused the PMG authenticator.
Counterfeits on Perkins plate notes can be very deceptive as they lack many of the anticounterfeiting devices seen on other obsoletes, like vignettes and protectors. The bank title and location on this note are sharp and look good but the rest of the plate is soft and not sharp. The defect under the bank title would be VERY unusual on a genuine note. Other than that, this is a deceptive counterfeit.
Many obsolete experts have a hard time identifying counterfeits, no matter how long they have been experts. Some counterfeits are pretty darn good but others are pretty crude and obvious. For me, looking at many notes has made detecting counterfeits easy, so going to shows and auctions and looking at as many notes as possible is a great way to develop this skill.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
I agree with all of what you have stated. This is my note. In hand it is apparent it is a counterfeit. Like you say, the more you observe these the easier it is to identify a counterfeit. I Another area on this note that is a tell tale sign is the scroll work behind the central "MAINE" device as well as the checking in the upper corners. Otherwise, well done.
This is not quite an obsolete (I wish though), but I just picked up a vignette, with the printing pasted onto a card, with a nice alligator vignette. I don't know much about the Continental Bank Note company other than ABNC acquired them in 1878, or much about this specific vignette, though I am not aware of it being used on any notes. The card has some handwritten notes 'Dead soft. Harden before attempting roll pick-up. 6-1-81 WS'. It is a cool vignette and I would like to find where it was used, if anywhere.
This came in a lot I purchased. It is not listed in Haxby, and I don't see where any of this style have sold on Stacks or Heritage. I believe this is a genuine note, not a counterfeit. I don't collect NY notes so I am not knowledgable enough to determine if this is a really rare note, or if they are around. I can't seem to find anything specific about this particular design in this particular denomination. Are there any NY obsolete collectors out there?
I guess that means me, and, yes, I can tell you more about your little treasure.
Yes, it's rare and yes, it's probably genuine. Counterfeits from this bank are scarce and genuine notes are rare.
NY notes from this period were likely issued in larger quantities and certainly larger varieties than any other state and maybe all other states combined. There were more banks in NY than anywhere else, counterfeiting was a big problem and a bank's best defense was to call in it's notes regularly and issue new designs. So, many different designs were made. It was before NY state regulation, so the State had no record of what was made or issued and counterfeit detectors weren't yet in use. Few knew what the notes were supposed to look like, so counterfeiters made a wide variety of designs, most quite crude. My point is that NY notes from this period, both genuine and counterfeit, are not particularly well documented in Haxby or anywhere. But this one is rare, listed or not. Many (maybe most) Haxby listings represent notes known to have been made but with no examples yet confirmed (SENC). They are known from State records and counterfeit detectors, which described both genuine notes and counterfeits.
Below are a variety of notes from this bank from my collection. Only the notes from the early issue are shown (less five fractional denominations, which I can show, if requested), most are counterfeits but a couple are genuine and appear to be from the same series as this one. Can you spot them?
Another interesting aspect of the early counterfeits from this bank is the wording "I promise to pay..." on one series. This wording would be indicative of a private issue drawn on this bank rather than a note of the bank itself. Yet, they are signed by bank officers. These are counterfeits and I'm unsure if the bank actually issued notes with this wording.
Considerable effort was put into creating signatures that actually resembled the genuine signatures of the bank officials but some are poorly executed. There was more concern and effort to get the signatures right than the designs.
Does anyone have other observations that can be added?
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
Thank you! great info!
I would say the 1st $5 and the $2 are from the same series and I would say they are both genuine.
If I were to guess on the whole lot from top to bottom I would say this:
Genuine
Ctf (Based on your assessment of the "promise to pay")
ctf
ctf
ctf
genuine
ctf
ctf
ctf
ctf
ctf
There was another Troy, NY note in this lot as well, pictured below. I believe this one is ctf. Similar to the $3 you have pictured above.
I believe that you are 100% correct in everything in your post.
I notice on your $1 counterfeit that it has a later date for the "I promise to pay" phrase than most other counterfeits. Generally this language is seen on the early counterfeits from the first decade of the 1800s. Also notice that the lettering is fairly well executed but the vignette is very crude. The bottom note that I pictured (cancelled $5) also has nicely done lettering but a vignette that just isn't the quality that top bank note producers were creating.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@sellitstore said:
I believe that you are 100% correct in everything in your post.
I notice on your $1 counterfeit that it has a later date for the "I promise to pay" phrase than most other counterfeits. Generally this language is seen on the early counterfeits from the first decade of the 1800s. Also notice that the lettering is fairly well executed but the vignette is very crude. The bottom note that I pictured (cancelled $5) also has nicely done lettering but a vignette that just isn't the quality that top bank note producers were creating.
I agree, the vignette is definitely the giveaway with these.
Its interesting your observation regarding "promise to pay" and the date range.
There are no Maine notes in this exact style as far as I know. Most of the early Maine (mass.) notes pre-1820 start at the Perkins PSSP style so Im not well versed in these. There are some counterfeit Portland notes from the 1804 range that are similar in their spartan design. Thanks for the info.
Have you seen one of these before, @MaineMoneyMan? Another treasure that just came out of the woodwork. It's a remainder but I doubt that there's a pile of them somewhere.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
Yes, it's the later type of Perkins Plate and uses the same design with blank slots for Bank and location in order to save on the cost of engraving an entirely new plate. For example, Washington County Bank $3 notes use the same design.
Both Haxby and Bowers report the Portland note as having been made but I think that this is the first survivor to be confirmed.
(Below photo from Heritage Archives.)
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
That’s a pretty busy design. One large center vignette, two minor vignettes, words and numbers printed over other words, all kinds of different fonts…my eyes are all over the place looking at the note.
The Rhode Island motto, "In God We Hope" predates "In God We Trust" on Federal money by several decades.
The former is not as strong a statement as the later, adopted one. The Union in the Civil War trusted God was on their side. Hope wasn't enough.
"In God We Hope" appears on the ribbon on top of the anchor to the right of the blindfolded figure of Liberty at the center. "E Pluribus Unum" is on the ribbon held in the eagle's mouth.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
A reference for the quote - The origin of the phrase: Time Is Money is an aphorism that originated in “Advice to a Young Tradesman”, an essay by Benjamin Franklin that appeared in George Fisher's 1748 book, The American Instructor: or Young Man's Best Companion, in which Franklin wrote, “Remember that time is money.”
Comments
Not rare, but I really like this matched set.
Very cool. The vignettes depict everyday life in the mid 19th century.
Maybe Russell or another member can help with this. I'm seeking some background on this particular souvenir card -- when it was issued and for what show. The Peter Maverick engraved note shown is likely the oldest intaglio plate ever reprinted on a card, but we know little about this one. Does it look familiar to any SPMC members out there?
For awhile when eBay first came out I acquired many New Jersey Obsoletes but all sold out over time - shows, online. Fascinating notes.
I got into Obsoletes few years ago and managed to pick up a handful of notes here and there.. One of the things I enjoy most about them is so many of them have multiple portraits on them and this 7-Portrait note is no exception :-)
Love the scenery on Obselete currency, this one even has an early security feature.
Ounce by ounce the stack grows .
Love this!
Hoping to score a redback at an upcoming show .
Ounce by ounce the stack grows .
Another one of my faves.. though, my primary consideration is whether or not I love the design, so essentially all of the notes in my collection are "one of my faves"
If loving Obsoletes is wrong, I don't wanna be right..
Those colors are poppin'! Very nice
Ounce by ounce the stack grows .
I just loves me some Maidens :-)
Many obsoletes are very rare and command substantial prices. I used to have a bunch of NJ Obsoletes picked up from eBay when it first came out. Got to appreciate their designs, scarcity, and demand. Did well with them.
For pricing on obsoletes refer to the book by Don C Kelly.
Nice UNC Connecticut picked up while silver shopping the other day. Good looking vignettes
Ounce by ounce the stack grows .
Wow, am I seeing four signatures ?
These finally came back from grading recently after a prolonged stint at PCGS.
Face:
Reverse:
Face:
Reverse:
delenda est WitterU
Not in perfect condition but I'd never seen one before and have had a difficult time finding another.. It features our first two U.S. Presidents, George Washington and John Adams as well as Zachary Taylor who was the current president at the time (March 1849 - July 1850) and I assume that since he was only in office for about a year and a half, this is the only note he ever appeared on and they probably didn’t issue them for all that long (which may be why I’d never seen one before)
It’s also the oldest note I have now as it’s dated 1849 and might be the most delicate note as well. It feels like it was printed on tissue paper.
Here are some notes from my collection.
Here is a new obsolete I recently added.
Here's another note with the vignette of Zachary Taylor. The Long Island Bank of Brooklyn (Haxby NY-325-A5). This is an altered $5 note from the Government Stock Bank of Ann Arbor, MI. Haxby MI-40-G12.
US Obsoletes esp NJ, WEB Notes,
National Iron Bank of Morristown (#1113) and Irish Currency
I think you meant Zachary Taylor. Really nice note.
US Obsoletes esp NJ, WEB Notes,
National Iron Bank of Morristown (#1113) and Irish Currency
Here is one of my cherry picks, only two known of this denomination according to the new Tennessee book.
I wonder if they actually fooled anyone with the NOT added to the COUNTERFEIT stamp.
I'll take this as an excuse to trot out a proof of the lazy deuce, by itself. Lazy 1, 3, and 5's were also engraved, but I've only seen the 2 and 5 actually used.
Dog and safe vignettes are a common theme on obsoletes as well as this check.
I found the title on this ebay item amusing:
"Bank Check Union Trust Company 1874 Dog W/ Key By Radio"
Just sold on Ebay for $725. Great note! I wasn't the buyer or seller, only an observer.
PMG Mistake. This note is 100% genuine.
https://ebay.com/itm/385385268643?hash=item59bac085a3:g:hukAAOSwm85j2bFV
PMG mistake, this is a counterfeit.
Yes, I agree. The Haxby listing shows a picture of a counterfeit from the same plate as your (note the ink blob, a plate defect, under the "NK" of "BANK".) However Haxby lists both genuine and counterfeit notes as being known and has placed this picture of a counterfeit where the genuine should appear. The photo should be under the listing for the counterfeit, not above. This minor error in the Haxby listing shouldn't have confused the PMG authenticator.
Counterfeits on Perkins plate notes can be very deceptive as they lack many of the anticounterfeiting devices seen on other obsoletes, like vignettes and protectors. The bank title and location on this note are sharp and look good but the rest of the plate is soft and not sharp. The defect under the bank title would be VERY unusual on a genuine note. Other than that, this is a deceptive counterfeit.
Many obsolete experts have a hard time identifying counterfeits, no matter how long they have been experts. Some counterfeits are pretty darn good but others are pretty crude and obvious. For me, looking at many notes has made detecting counterfeits easy, so going to shows and auctions and looking at as many notes as possible is a great way to develop this skill.
I agree with all of what you have stated. This is my note. In hand it is apparent it is a counterfeit. Like you say, the more you observe these the easier it is to identify a counterfeit. I Another area on this note that is a tell tale sign is the scroll work behind the central "MAINE" device as well as the checking in the upper corners. Otherwise, well done.
This is not quite an obsolete (I wish though), but I just picked up a vignette, with the printing pasted onto a card, with a nice alligator vignette. I don't know much about the Continental Bank Note company other than ABNC acquired them in 1878, or much about this specific vignette, though I am not aware of it being used on any notes. The card has some handwritten notes 'Dead soft. Harden before attempting roll pick-up. 6-1-81 WS'. It is a cool vignette and I would like to find where it was used, if anywhere.
This came in a lot I purchased. It is not listed in Haxby, and I don't see where any of this style have sold on Stacks or Heritage. I believe this is a genuine note, not a counterfeit. I don't collect NY notes so I am not knowledgable enough to determine if this is a really rare note, or if they are around. I can't seem to find anything specific about this particular design in this particular denomination. Are there any NY obsolete collectors out there?
"Are there any NY obsolete collectors out there?'
I guess that means me, and, yes, I can tell you more about your little treasure.
Yes, it's rare and yes, it's probably genuine. Counterfeits from this bank are scarce and genuine notes are rare.
NY notes from this period were likely issued in larger quantities and certainly larger varieties than any other state and maybe all other states combined. There were more banks in NY than anywhere else, counterfeiting was a big problem and a bank's best defense was to call in it's notes regularly and issue new designs. So, many different designs were made. It was before NY state regulation, so the State had no record of what was made or issued and counterfeit detectors weren't yet in use. Few knew what the notes were supposed to look like, so counterfeiters made a wide variety of designs, most quite crude. My point is that NY notes from this period, both genuine and counterfeit, are not particularly well documented in Haxby or anywhere. But this one is rare, listed or not. Many (maybe most) Haxby listings represent notes known to have been made but with no examples yet confirmed (SENC). They are known from State records and counterfeit detectors, which described both genuine notes and counterfeits.
Below are a variety of notes from this bank from my collection. Only the notes from the early issue are shown (less five fractional denominations, which I can show, if requested), most are counterfeits but a couple are genuine and appear to be from the same series as this one. Can you spot them?
Another interesting aspect of the early counterfeits from this bank is the wording "I promise to pay..." on one series. This wording would be indicative of a private issue drawn on this bank rather than a note of the bank itself. Yet, they are signed by bank officers. These are counterfeits and I'm unsure if the bank actually issued notes with this wording.
Considerable effort was put into creating signatures that actually resembled the genuine signatures of the bank officials but some are poorly executed. There was more concern and effort to get the signatures right than the designs.
Does anyone have other observations that can be added?
Thank you! great info!
I would say the 1st $5 and the $2 are from the same series and I would say they are both genuine.
If I were to guess on the whole lot from top to bottom I would say this:
Genuine
Ctf (Based on your assessment of the "promise to pay")
ctf
ctf
ctf
genuine
ctf
ctf
ctf
ctf
ctf
There was another Troy, NY note in this lot as well, pictured below. I believe this one is ctf. Similar to the $3 you have pictured above.
I believe that you are 100% correct in everything in your post.
I notice on your $1 counterfeit that it has a later date for the "I promise to pay" phrase than most other counterfeits. Generally this language is seen on the early counterfeits from the first decade of the 1800s. Also notice that the lettering is fairly well executed but the vignette is very crude. The bottom note that I pictured (cancelled $5) also has nicely done lettering but a vignette that just isn't the quality that top bank note producers were creating.
I agree, the vignette is definitely the giveaway with these.
Its interesting your observation regarding "promise to pay" and the date range.
There are no Maine notes in this exact style as far as I know. Most of the early Maine (mass.) notes pre-1820 start at the Perkins PSSP style so Im not well versed in these. There are some counterfeit Portland notes from the 1804 range that are similar in their spartan design. Thanks for the info.
Have you seen one of these before, @MaineMoneyMan? Another treasure that just came out of the woodwork. It's a remainder but I doubt that there's a pile of them somewhere.
Is it a Perkins?
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Yes, it's the later type of Perkins Plate and uses the same design with blank slots for Bank and location in order to save on the cost of engraving an entirely new plate. For example, Washington County Bank $3 notes use the same design.
Both Haxby and Bowers report the Portland note as having been made but I think that this is the first survivor to be confirmed.
(Below photo from Heritage Archives.)
I have not encountered one before, definitely a rare note. The design is used heavily in Maine issues. Thanks for posting.
That’s a pretty busy design. One large center vignette, two minor vignettes, words and numbers printed over other words, all kinds of different fonts…my eyes are all over the place looking at the note.
When you have "hope," not "trust." ...Alas the note is counterfeit,
The Rhode Island motto, "In God We Hope" predates "In God We Trust" on Federal money by several decades.
The former is not as strong a statement as the later, adopted one. The Union in the Civil War trusted God was on their side. Hope wasn't enough.
"In God We Hope" appears on the ribbon on top of the anchor to the right of the blindfolded figure of Liberty at the center. "E Pluribus Unum" is on the ribbon held in the eagle's mouth.
I prefer a non-religious motto; again a counterfeit.
Interesting note @beryl , thanks for sharing.
A reference for the quote - The origin of the phrase: Time Is Money is an aphorism that originated in “Advice to a Young Tradesman”, an essay by Benjamin Franklin that appeared in George Fisher's 1748 book, The American Instructor: or Young Man's Best Companion, in which Franklin wrote, “Remember that time is money.”