I hate legal scam artists...
KevyKevTPA
Posts: 24 ✭
So get this.
There is this company called The Bradford Exchange. They are selling a subscription service that gets you a brand-new ASE every year when they come out. It includes what looks like a beautiful, mahogany box to store what looks like it'll hold about 25 coins. It's a subscription service, so you'll eventually end up with a bullion quality BU coin for every year of issue, including future ones, delivered "every month or two". I guess until they've caught up to the present day.
Plus, the coins are slabbed!
Doesn't sound like a bad plan for a casual collector who would like to have a complete set one day, right?
But here comes "The Other Shoe".
First, the slabs come from... The Bradford Exchange. And they only rate the coins as "Brilliant Uncirculated", which ain't that hard for modern coins still in production. I just bought a PCGS MS70 2021 Morgan myself, and it's beautiful and absolutely flawless. (It's cert #44544125 for anyone who wants to take a look.)
But here's the real kicker... The whole deal is available for the low, low, low, low price of....
Wait for it....
$119.00 PER COIN!!!!
Now, on the one hand I kinda wish I could figure out a way to sell <$35 coins for $119, on the other, that just seems so entirely unethical to me that I probably wouldn't do it even if I did come up with a scheme that worked, unless I was providing some other significant added value of some kind.
I'm as big a capitalist as you'll ever find, but I find this to be a disgusting example of a firm taking advantage of people who simply don't know they can buy these coins every single day for a quarter of that price on sites like EBay, USA Coin Book, etc. And I'd bet a lot of their customers are older folk who don't know any better.
Anyway... rant over, I guess..
Kev
Comments
I meant to add "victims" after the struck out "customer".
While the price of the coins sounds way too high, nothing you mentioned supports your accusation of “scam artists”. Additionally, your post violates the posted rules, here.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It's easy to edit a post. Click on the little gear in the upper right corner and then click on EDIT and then make your changes.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This post is offensive and slightly ignorant.
Marketing companies do not make as much money as you think. A lot of money is spent on advertising and reaching people who otherwise didn't even know these coins exist. So, while "insiders" like yourself might scoff, without the EXPENSIVE advertising, their customers would not be aware of the existence of the coins. That awareness comes at a cost. That cost is, most certainly, borne by the customers. It is not, however, pocketed by the firm in quite the manner you suggest.
If you think you can do better, you are free to try. I'd be willing to bet you would lose your ever-loving arse.
What are you doing to help educate those people who "simply don't know"?
Interesting to see how quickly and vehemently folks are to defend this practice, especially given that the customer is basically losing 70% of their investment immediately. It’s akin to selling an ounce of gold for $6000 and justifying it by saying $5k of that went to marketing, advertising, and executive salaries. It’s not a “scam” in my book, but I’d be hard pressed to get behind that.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I went to The Bradford Exchange to see what they were advertising. Looks like a lot of marketing hype but I didn't see where that included anything about the coins being an investment.
Just sayin'.
For those opposed to businesses who sell things for prices you don't approve of, what do you propose as a solution?
There’s a huge difference between defending a practice - which I’m not doing - and stating that what was reported by the OP didn’t support the accusation of “scam artists”. I agree with your last sentence.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Perhaps my choice of the word "scam" was ill-advised, but I couldn't think of an alternative and that's why I qualified it by saying "legal".
But what they're doing is taking advantage of ignorant people and essentially price gouging, in spirt if not actually illegally, and it pisses me off. And though I'm a noob here, I'm actually quite shocked at the number of y'all jumping to their defense as whatever you think about my use of the word "scam", to my way of thinking what they're doing is highly unethical.
I just checked a bullion dealer I've done business with before, and I can buy 100+ ASEs for $30.02, on EBay they're going from about $35-39, at $40 you start seeing PCGS and NGC slabbed MS69s, and at $50, you start seeing slabbed MS70s. I'd bet money I don't have these folks are not selling 69-70 quality coins, I'd frankly be shocked if they qualified for a 65, though being a bullion coin, calling them uncirculated is almost certainly true, but they could be selling scuffs.
Those are examples of what I consider fair market RETAIL pricing to be. And imagine if these folks have thousands or even tens of thousands of customers, which is likely... Even if they're not an authorized mint dealer, and I saw nothing to indicate that, coins are not even their focus, at least it seems so based on the amount of other product categories they carry, regardless at those kinds of volumes, rest assured they're not paying what it would cost me, even at the $30.02 price.
They're also adding a $10 s&s price, for a net of $129.98 for a $35-40 coin. Yes, a few years cost a bit more, but at those kinds of profit margins, who cares, really. For less than that, I can buy a PCGS slabbed 2022-WPR70DCAM FDOI on EBay right now. Do you suppose that's what they're selling??
As for doing it myself, if my personal ethical standards would allow me to rip people off to such a gross degree, piece of cake. Figure a cost of $35/coin (I'm being generous), $1-2 for the slab that I could buy in bulk from some Chinese outfit or even 3D print them myself for half the price (or less), say $10 for the nice looking but likely not high quality box, divided by 25 (because customers only need one for every 25 coins) so $0.40 per coin plus say $5 shipping on the box ($0.20 per coin), say $0.25 for envelopes, bubble wrap, $0.58 for a first class stamp (which would probably actually be presort bulk rate, whatever that is) for a grand total cost to me of $38.43. $33.45 at the lower cost on the coin.
At $128.98 resale, minus $38.43, that's a net profit of $90.55 per coin, and a 300% markup. From retail, not even considering the wholesale pricing they're getting from someone.
If your ethics allow you to do that, or even allow you to approve of it, I really don't know what to say. They are, at best, ripping off people who aren't real coin collectors, many of whom are likely seniors that are freaking out because their retirement accounts have dipped by 30% since the beginning of the year and have heard through the grapevine that precious metals are a good alternative, but who aren't sophisticated enough, or to be brutally honest, smart enough to do their own due diligence properly.
So regardless of what anyone thinks, I am not going to apologize for calling them out for what comes just a hair away from outright theft, and if that's the way you do business, too, then you're part of the problem.
No one is exactly defending the practice. However, it is a legal business which is really no different than collectors plates or the US Mint.
You forgot that 75% of the cost is eaten up by advertising expense.
You aren't going to be around here for long. It's been nice knowing you.
OP didn't do his hw
Just went to the Bradford site, they are selling a subscription of ASE's from present day to 1986.
So aka a complete set from 1986 to 2022. Some of those old school ASE's go from $60-120 in MS69.
They also let you cancel the subscription at any time so this scam artist commentary is a HUGE stretch.
After advertising cost and the actual cost of the ASE, they are probably only making $15 per subscription period.
The U.S mint did more highway robbery on us with those $85 price points on the Morgan's/Peace's last year
There’s no “perhaps” about your choice of the word “scam” being ill-advised. And again, you’re violating forum rules and might be banned for it.
If you’d used a different, more accurate characterization of the seller’s actions, you likely would have received much more supportive responses.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How about don't buy coins from them?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
2022 FDOI. let's see, that's a $30 coin in a $10 slab that you think is worth $100. Sounds like a bit of a scam to me....
.
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Wow! Some of the responses here are just plain rude. When new members come here many are met with rudeness. Perhaps that is a sign of the times but it does not make it right. The OP was pointing out one marketer that he believed was seemingly overcharging unsophisticated customers. Most of you condemn his use of the word “scam” and I am not commenting on that here. However, some of you jump in to defend or justify those practices based on presumed costs and claim the OP was somehow offensive. If you don’t agree with his post, explain why and educate in a respectful way. This post does not apply to all of you! But you know if it applies to you. We can do better. We can be better.
By the way, I too visited the extensive website. IMO the maintenance of a website does not justify the markup over retail. For example, they sell an entire set of uncirculated (not graded) rare Morgan and Peace silver dollars starting with the rare very first peace (1921) and the rare very last Morgan (1921) with historical significance and potential value in a self slab. If you read further, the subscription for the entire set does not include some dates. It just means their entire set of the dates of their choosing. All for only $119.99 per coin.
I personally would not buy from these coins because they are available elsewhere for a fraction of that price. But I certainly won’t discourage any of you from doing so. And as for what we can do as individuals to stop other sellers that are charging more than market price for their products, maybe a good start is by pointing it out. As for how we can treat end respond to each other, we can do better.
NO ONE here was rude to the OP - which in itself is rather unusual. LOL. The OP went on a long screed in violation of forum rules and we suggested he reconsider his position before he got banned. His response was two other long screeds.
The maintenance of the website is not what creates the cost. The company in question does a lot of direct marketing with substantial print and media advertising. That is expensive. It is the same as QVC and all the TV coin sellers. They do not make as much money as you think. They clearly make money, or they would stop doing it. However it is an expensive business model to operate.
I, personally, would never buy from them. However, that is easy to say as I am a "coin insider". I know where to access the material and what material is available. The company in question is selling to "coin outsiders", certainly. But to label it a scam simply ignores the fact that it is but one of thousands of direct marketing companies that operate legitimately legal, though expensive, retail operations.
Predictable pedantry aside, this is clearly fleecing those who don’t know any better. Plenty of knowledgeable collectors buy ASEs. How many would buy these examples at these prices? A fleece, plain and simple. I think scam would be accurate in the colloquial sense.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
I have never liked companies that sell coins for 4 to 5 times what you could generally buy them for in the normal marketplace. The television has so many and for so many years. Its bad for our hobby. Imagine when grandpa goes to a coin store to sell his collection that he paid 5 times what it was worth thinks when the dealer offers him 1/6 of what he paid. Grandpa doesn't realize he was ripped off at the point of purchase. He thinks the dealer is a bad apple and tells everyone about it.
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Overall, an unfortunate thread. Possibly a rant on facebook would have a more desired outcome.
100% correct
@basetsb_coins on Instagram
I feel the same way about the US Mint but...
the old let's see how many suckers we can part their cash from route been around for years and the issue is many fall for such things
1997-present
What is the acceptable price limit in dollars and cents to what can be charged for these coins in order to avoid taking advantage of people?
That's one way.
If you can show me where to buy a PR70 PROOF PCGS Slabbed FDOI for $30, I'll buy you one. Hell, I'll buy you two. You can't even buy an MS70 bullion grade PCGS one for that.
But, in a way you made my point for me. This company, who I found through a google search for gold eagles, whilst trying to find the best price, is one I've never heard of, never seen a commercial for (and I'm disabled so I see a lot of those daytime commercials aimed at retired folk, including a lot for gold and silver), never seen a print ad for, and would bet a large sum they don't have a single retail store anywhere in the country is essentially selling selling $30 coins in a $2 slab (because they buy/make it themselves, it's not like it's from a real grading company) for not $100, but all in freight included, for $130.
Oh, and they reserve the right to increase the price "if required based on material market changes". How much you want to bet after the first couple of coins that $130 becomes $131, then $132, and the next thing you know, just like my ex-cable company, you look up a year or two later and you're paying $180 or $200 because the spot price of silver went up by a dime. You think they lower the price if it goes down? I sure don't. And you don't get the box until after you've purchased 3 coins, which comes out to... well, you do the math. And in this case, when I say "you", I'm not speaking to anybody in particular.
If you find this sort of sales and marketing "strategy" acceptable, block me, ban me, I don't care. I don't like it when people rip other people off, and in this case, their "investment" loses 75% the minute they write a check is ripping people off.
If my stockbroker was selling me $30 shares for $130 because I was too naive or stupid to know better, the SEC would lock them up, and as far as I'm personally concerned, I'd be just fine if the same happened to these folks.
BTW, here's their website, which I intended but forgot to put in my OP: https://www.bradfordexchange.com/products/911117_complete-american-eagle-silver-dollar-coin-collection.html?msclkid=99f72ac73d381f0d03e8480121041b52&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Smart+Shopping+-+Subplans&utm_term=4582901928535975&utm_content=Ad+group+#1
The Bradford Exchange has been around for DECADES. They sell all kinds of collectibles and it is all by direct marketing. Your ignorance of them doesn't change anything about either their business model or their costs.
Your investment in many US Mint products loses 50% the minute it arrives at your door. Not only that, they actually CONTROL THE SUPPLY. So, go ahead, take a shot at them also.
Let's not forget 1st Day Covers and USPS collectibles that lose 90% of their value as soon as you've taken them home.
No one thinks it is a good idea to buy from the Bradford Exchange or QVC or any other direct marketing firm. But your rant is simply over the top.
Well, if you put a $30 ASE in a $10 PCGS slab, you can sell it for $100. That appears to be acceptable (to some). So, apparently, the line is somewhere between a 150% mark-up and a 200% mark-up.
I also note that our newbie rants about the $10 S&H charge. Apparently he knows a way to get packaging and shipping done for free...
P.S. I know no one cares about the difference between gross and net, but these operations aren't as profitable as people think because of the high cost of the operations. So, when assessing the "acceptable price limit", are we using the gross cost of the ASE or the total cost of putting together the package, marketing the package and shipping the package? I would be surprised if the actual ROI on the Bradford Exchange is any higher than our hosts, for example.
I would also suggest (calmly to you) that there is a big difference in cost between going on eBay and buying one 1988 ASE and having to buy 1,000 1988 ASE's. You're not going to buy them one-at-a-time for $30 each.
To the OP:
That company has been around a long time. They tend to advertise in the fliers that come in your mailbox or wirh the Sunday paper. They sell all sorts of things, and have affiliated companies that specialize in other things. They are sort of like the old Franklin Mint in that they sell "collectables".
By mentioning them by name and accusing them of being scammers and ripping people off, you have violated the forum rules that you agreed to when you signed up.
Yup. They've been selling Elvis plates, and the like, for half a century. The ASE's are actually more likely to hold their value than collector plates. My grandmother and mother were buying Royal Copenhagen Christmas plates starting in 1956 until a couple years ago. In recent years, the new issues were $150 each. Good luck getting $10 on the secondary market for most of them.
Kev is too young and inexperienced to read about libel laws. He should know about libel.
Kev, research ACG vs Et al.
That might open your eyes.
This thread reminds me of the complaints Littleton would receive back in the 1980s.
These companies provide a service. Some customers look forward to receiving a package in the mail
and are delighted when they arrive.
Coins are not like stocks. There is joy in opening a package and adding to a collection.
Of course, they're overpriced. So are many of these types of sales on QVC and whatnot.
Should they be blocked or banned from commerce by the government? No.
Are YOU responsible as a consumer for checking out the prices of just about anything (including silver eagles) before
purchasing? Yes.
Personal accountability vs. government overreaching.
peacockcoins
Please let me know where I can sell a $30 ASE in MY OWN slab for not $100, but $130. I'd dump my stocks and buy as many ASEs as I had the cash for, if I felt it was ethical.
And when selling at 400% of the fair market price, they could at least cover the shipping, as everyone I've ever bought an ASE from has, and I'm paying actual market price. However, when shipping one coin in a self-made slab, you can put that in an envelope and send it via first class mail for $0.58 plus the cost of the envelope. And I'm quite certain they're using bulk rate postage, and while I don't know how much that is, it's a lot less.
As far as justifying this BS because of their marketing costs, a couple of weeks ago I looked up one of the precious metal companies that run non-stop commercials during the day, and while they were selling the above market, it was only by like ten bucks. Another one I literally just looked up said "Call for pricing".
Literally, the last commercial I saw less than 30 seconds ago is for yet another firm that buys daytime ads by the millions. Though for most coins their website says "Call for pricing", they're actually selling ASEs at market.
How can that be, with all their marketing costs???
Frankly, I'm literally shocked that people in a PCGS forum are trying to justify this. Makes me feel like I'm on Reddit.
I can't find a specific case. I assume ACG is anti-cybercrime group???
You can sell your own slabbed ASE for $130....AFTER YOU SPEND TENS OF THOUSANDS IN MARKETING COSTS. That is the part of the equation you keep ignoring. I dare say you can get $200 or more for a slick product properly marketed.
Do a little research on the actual cost of the active ingredients in Tide detergent and you MIGHT begin to understand. It is a few cents worth of detergent in a fancy package with a marketing campaign behind it. I fail to see why coins are different than detergent or cookies. The customer does their research and decides whether to pay for convenience or hype or they find a cheaper alternative. PERIOD.
DON'T BUY THE ASE's. TELL YOUR FRIENDS NOT TO BUY THE ASE's. But stop labeling it as anything other than marketing hype.
Pm sent
Much obliged. Thank you very much. I can't believe I didn't think of THAT ACG while on the coin forum. LOL.
Don't ask us - ask the company that got you all fired up in the first place. Once you've built the infrastructure (physical facilities, business licenses, staff, etc.) you can start looking for places to market your collectables. (Remember, you will be a marketing company, not a coin dealer).
Wrong. You would at the very least have to pay the nonmachineable surcharge, but in any case no one should be mailing a slab in a regular envelope. It should be properly packaged and tracked/insured.
You're not paying attention. No one here is justifying anything. They are simply explaining how it works. No one here would buy that stuff. Then again, we are not the target audience.
Your local coin dealer or even most of the internet dealers don't have to work very hard to find customers - they just have to make themselves known and maybe entice some already willing buyers.
On the other hand, marketing companies selling collectables have to create an interest where little or none existed before they advertised their products.
P S. - it sounds like you watch way too much TV if you are seeing all those offensive ads. You really need a hobby. Might I suggest stamp collecting?
I don't think anybody here believes their business model is good for the hobby, but they do nothing illegal. What about companies that sell purses for thousands? Do you know how much Ford makes on a pick up (lots)?
The reason you're getting pummeled is that you just threw out a rant with no thought towards a solution. Throwing around terms like scam and they shouldn't be allowed to charge so much. Question for you. How much should they be allowed to charge and who is going to set that price? I noticed you didn't bother to answer that question when it was asked on a few other posts. Why?
The original post is just a sabre rattling rant because you feel they are overpriced. While I'm sure nearly all the members feel that The Bradford Exchange is a terrible place to purchase numismatic items, they are a legit business, delivering what they advertise. Members aren't being critical of your assertion, they are being critical of the poorly constructed reasoning (or lack of reasoning) you give.
BTW, I didn't see any recommendations from you on what what we should do about this. You brought it up, so what's the solution? Or is your post just a complaint with no substance?
Just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth
The OP compares us to Reddit.
Here you get well-thought-out opinions based on examples and logic.
You get quick retorts on Reddit that may be humorous and comically engaging but don't answer your concerns.
Just because you don't like the answers here shouldn't give you a reason to mock the responses you receive.
peacockcoins
Too thick for non-machineable. Over 1/4 inch it would have to be package rate which is $3 to $4 with no insurance... and sometime has to package it and buy the packing supplies. I'm amazed at how many people here are willing to work for free.
Hey, Kev, how many slabs can you package in an hour and how much do you want to get paid per hour?
So for $119 a person gets a carved wooden box and a minted silver coin. So someone had to cut down a tree, probably many trees while they honed their carving skills. Then someone else had to explore for and establish a silver mining operation, mine the silver. Then purify and mint the coin. The designers had to be paid to make the coin design. And then lets not forget the airplane ride the coin has to take to arrive at your house. Have you seen the prices of fuel? Seems like a really good deal to me. I couldnt do all those things for a penny less than 4 million dollars on my own.
how much do you want to get paid per hour?
I'd be happy with $500,000/hour, but unfortunate life circumstances, namely a disability that makes it impossible for me to work, mean my income is precisely $0.00. Not that it's relevant to our discussion or any of anybody's business, though it's something I'm not at all shy about discussing. Hell, if you want the whole long, sad story just PM me and I'll tell you all about it.
That's also why I watch a lot of daytime TV, as someone was asking about.
But more on topic, did you miss the part where I noted that a company that is likely spending millions on TV advertising is selling ASEs at market? Don't they have marketing costs, too?
But it would appear they also have ethics, unless they're selling all the "Call for pricing" coins at 400% of market.
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How do you suppose that a company spending millions on TV advertising, yet selling ASE's at "market" makes money?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I have their products in the form of a full set of slabbed Walking Libertys in a nice fancy wooden holder. Two of them are F12 at best. The rest are garbage. I imagine they came from cable shopping network which have a reputation all their own. I've seen first hand over the last few years how susceptible the elderly are to pressure sales. Not a scam but ruthless.
USAF veteran 1984-2005
Apologists for this type of business model need to remember their statements here the next time they're trying to haggle the last nickel out of their local dealer, who they seem to think is a thief when he's making 10% on something...
RIP Mom- 1932-2012