Top 5 Most Offensive Dealer Interactions of 2002

Singapore · January 3, 2003 11:09PM

Dealer A, who shall remain nameless (TAGZ) offering me coins that they had on memo from my regular dealer and that I had seen and rejected at 30% lower prices the week before.

Dealer B (&M) pontificating about their 'choice coins for the grade' while offering a coin as AU50 that had previously been offered to me as a XF45 and asking exactly double what the coin had been priced when first offered to me 6 months earlier.

Dealer B (&M again) explaining that they are willing to accept any coin on consignment sight unseen provided they can make a 25% mark-up, which explains partly how they have the same coins you can buy anywhere else show up on their price lists as 'choice for the grade' at prices two latitude lines above ridiculous.

Dealer C (some little guy on Ebay) who I met and bought something from now offering a different coin on Ebay but doing so under a different name, who, when I call the guy, pretends to be another person using a goofy made-up voice, though his mailing address and telelphone number are the same.

Dealer A again, who again I will not mention by name (TAGZ) sending coins to me on memo unsolicited, that just show up one day, that I don't need or want, but now have to pack up and mail back at my expense.

And finally, dealer A again, sending me a list of 'great coins that are from an old collection' and 'fresh stuff new to the market' which, after 11 minutes of cursory looking, I discover have all been purchased from auctions within the last 30 days several of which I attended and at which I met and spoke to dealer A.

RKKay · January 3, 2003 11:45PM

Dealer A offering to contact his clients to check on availability of coins on my clients' want lists. My giving him a specific list. My finding that list later that day on a dealer-to-dealer site. Dealer A had posted it in the Coins Wanted section, right below my more general post.

kranky · January 3, 2003 11:56PM

Incredible stories! I guess some dealers think their customers are morons.

Being outright lied to is bad enough, but if someone sent me a box of coins unsolicited I'd just call them up and say "Let me know when you want to stop by and pick 'em up".

roadrunner · January 3, 2003 11:57PM

Singapore,

You had no obligation whatsoever to return those coins to dealer A
if the coins were fully unsolicited. I'm sure they would have sent one of their lawyers after you but keeping the coins for a while may have taught them a valuable lesson. As a minimum you should have held the coins back until they sent you a check to cover return postage. While you may have lost them as a dealer source it doesn't appear that this would bother you any.

Before the market fell apart in 1990 I had consigned an expensive and rare seated coin to a particular dealer who I thought would look out for me. What they did was give the coin to another dealer on consignment (double consignment?) who I won't name (Tagz or TIA back then) who promptly added another % on top of the already strong price tag. It never got sold and was returned to me several months later after the market started falling. They didn't even bother to remove the coin from the TIA holder and the stupid price they had listed on it. They were looking to make 30% risk free. I guess 5-10% was out of the question.

roadrunner

g097103 · January 4, 2003 1:18AM

<< <i>Dealer A again, who again I will not mention by name (TAGZ) sending coins to me on memo unsolicited, that
just show up one day, that I don't need or want, but now have to pack up and mail back at my expense. >>

I may be wrong but anything sent to you unsolicited can be kept and considered a gift. Perhaps there is a loophole
they can exploit but I seem to remember this being made into law because of the abuses that came along with
such actions.

Tonelover · January 4, 2003 1:20AM

Nothing too serious for me. But recently I called a small dealer on the internet inquiring about 5 PDS Commem sets he was offering. When I started asking questions like were they matched, original, nice for the grade etc, he said that he didn't want to go look at them because I was probably too picky and he didn't want to waste his time. Maybe it would have been a waste of time, but I was amazed at his lack of effort given the fact that I wanted to spent a few thousand dollars with him if he just would just get off his lazy butt and talk to me about the coins. Not a big deal, I just assumed he wanted to sell his coins but apparently not.

Aside from a few flyers on ebay here and there, I tend to just stick with a very small group of dealers whom I know and trust. That helps eliminate a lot of potential problems.

barberlover · January 4, 2003 1:49AM

Wow, sure are alot of horror stories out there, this post is similar to my horror story post a few days ago. I'd like to breifly rehash mine to make a specific point. When i was in heavey competition for a 64 red type date half cent more than a year ago at an online heritage auction, the reason the coin was bid up above bid levels was because of the pretty look of the image taken. I was very happy to think i had won the coin in the image. When i got the coin however i discovered that the enhanced image made the coin look close to 65 red quality with bright red surfaces and full luster. when i got the coin sent to me, although it didn't look terrible it didn't look even remotley close to the coin in the enhanced image on the websight. Although i agreed that heritage had not done it deliberatley they wouldn't take the coin because it was a signature auction. So heritage resold the coin for me at there next signature auction and at first used an unenhanced image which was changed to the previous image that was used when they sold me the coin. But the unenhanced image had been up for a number of days before this happened and i ended up swallowing a 1000 loss. If a dealer has online auctions with no return privledges, they should ask themseles if the images are an accurate reflection of what the coin truely looks like befoe posting the image especially when there is no return priveledge. That should always be the case of anyone posting an image of a coin for sale.

wondercoin · January 4, 2003 2:20AM

I have been lucky that I have had only -1- instance in the past several years where a dealer (a "big-time" dealer at that) sold me a coin and then did not deliver it to me. A very dissapointing experience, if you have ever experienced it.

In most cases, one quickly discovers which dealers out there follow the "my word is my bond" philosophy.

Wondercoin

tradedollarnut · January 4, 2003 2:25AM

Almost the same story here:

I won a spirited bidding war for a trade dollar on ebay. It was in an old NGC PF64 holder and by the picture looked heavy cameo. The description was stated that the coin should 65 or 66 and I agreed by the way it looked. I bid full 65 money, figuring at worst it was a highend 64 DCAM.

When I received the coin, it was appropriately graded and not even cameo. The dealer admitted to using Photoshop on the image but denied playing with the contrast. Well, the image had been changed so much that the slab label, which was tan in person, was now olive in the picture. I returned the coin and the dealer decided he was going to charge me $500!!!!!!!!!!.

To make a long story short, it's been five weeks and I haven't seen a check. I've contacted ebay and squaretrade and filed cases against the dealer. I've notified ebay to not cancel the auction so I can neg him to the hilt.

Now the important part: ALL THIS HASSLE WAS MY OWN DAMN FAULT! For the most part, Ebay is a dumping ground for low end cr@p coins and I should have known better. A dealer is NOT going to sell an undergraded coin on ebay when he can get it upgraded or sell it at a national convention for ready cash and not have to deal with the public. I should have known better and I got burned. But I've learned my lesson. From now on, I only buy coins of value from respected dealers who won't try to rip me off and offer full return privileges.

Edited to add: There are good dealers on ebay and there are bad dealers on ebay. Make sure that you take the time to ensure that you are dealing with one of the good ones if you decide to bid. Ebay can be a positive experience if you do this.

ccrdragon · January 4, 2003 2:31AM

Worst for me was also an ebay auction for a very nice looking '29 Buffalo (MS64 Range). Got the buffalo and sent it to NGC who BB'd it for cleaning. When I contacted the ebay dealer, he would not take the coin back. Ended up selling the thing on ebay (in the bodybag!) for about half of what I had in it...

Last time I buy a raw coin off of ebay unless I know the person selling it!

Bear · January 4, 2003 2:39AM

Once a collector establishes a network of ethical and reliable dealers, then I suspect

the percentage of pleasent transactions is quite high. The problem is , when you take a chance

and get burned by someone ,its usually a doozy that is long remembered. The dealers I go to

have stood the test of time and have always stood behind their product and service. It all boils

down to finding the many good dealers out there and avoiding the trash dealers.

To that end , these Forums are invaluable.

DesertLizard · January 4, 2003 2:41AM

The top 5?

1. ebay
2. teletrade
3. superior auction
4. 1 to 1 purchase w/ 2 bit dealer
5. Zerbe's misadvanture with BV

99% of dealers out there are scum. Whining coniving sleezy maggots.

All I can say is thank god for grading services because you can imagine what BS went on before standardized grading. Today, same games but alot more difficult for the scammers.

Singapore · January 4, 2003 2:44AM

Hey Lizard -

Explain the Superior Auction comment. I've dealt with them and have my theoroies, but I'd like to hear more.

ccrdragon · January 4, 2003 2:46AM

I think your estimate is unreasonably high on the number of scumbag dealers, DL. The problem is that the scumbags get
all of the attention and the really good dealers just quietly keep doing good things (because we usually do not sound the
trumpets and beat the drums when a dealer does something good).

I would guess that not more than 10% of the dealers (I do mean dealers, not the fly-by-night ebay sellers, etc) are bad -
they just get 99% of the press because of thier badness. Look at the evening news or read a newspaper - we are a nation
that is hooked on bad news and anybody in the business will tell you that good news does not sell - only bad news.

It's a sad commentary on the state of our society, but it is also very true.

edited for spelling

MadMarty · January 4, 2003 2:47AM

Mine came from a dealer in AZ (Flagstaff), I was going to buy my first MS 1909-S VDB Lincoln. Sent the dealer the money and get a VF 1909-S VDB in the mail. Sent it back and when through the 5 month run around to get my cash back. Finally I called the FBI office in Phonix and they paid hem a friendly visit. Go a cashiers check the next day (vid fed-ex).

Bear · January 4, 2003 2:55AM

CCR - I think you are right on target. Well said.

mr1931S · January 4, 2003 3:16AM

i've got kind of a funny "rare" coin story...

i was at one of the old Denver coin shops one day looking at coins in their roll-around cases and two fellows walked and proceeded to tell the dealer that they had something very rare that was for sale...

one of them pulled a coin out of his pocket and handed the coin to the dealer...the dealer took a quick look at the coin,threw it on the glass-top counter (much to their dismay-i could hear that coin go clunk and slide across the glass )...he said he would consult with the owner of the store in the back room...

my interest was piqued so i asked them if i could see the coin...okay...it was a Barber dime...1894-S!...the area around the 'S',however,was all wavy like it had seen the business end of a micro-torch...

the dealer came out from the back room after consulting with the owner and told the two they thought the coin was a counterfeit...the fellows told the dealer that their asking price was $50,000 and,in fact,had been offered this much from a Minnesota dealer...the dealer suggested that they should take the $50,000 because there was no way he was going to pay $50,000 for their obvious counterfeit...

good thing the dealer didn't take the fake 1894-S to the back room to show the owner...they probably would have accused the dealer of switching coins on them...

ARCO · January 4, 2003 4:38AM

On the Tagz dealer sending out unsolicited coins for you to pay for or send back at your expense; keep them, or send them what you think they are worth, or demand they send you money for return shipping, ins. and $50 an hour for you time wasting it at the Post office.

Amazing,

Tyler

vega1 · January 4, 2003 4:43AM

<< <i>Dealer C (some little guy on Ebay) who I met and bought something from now offering a different coin on Ebay but doing so under a different name, who, when I call the guy, pretends to be another person using a goofy made-up voice, though his mailing address and telelphone number are the same. >>

Thats hilarious!

Whats that famous quote?

"Oh what tangled webs we weave, when we pretend to be a swede"... or something like that...

airplanenut · January 4, 2003 4:55AM

<< <i>I'm sure they would have sent one of their lawyers after you >>

See... then he wouldn't have had to pay return postage!

IGWT · January 27, 2009 11:28AM

I thought that we could add RYK's experience with Dealer A to the list in the OP. This doesn't read like a thread that would be started by a dealer, does it?

coinman420 · January 27, 2009 11:36AM

it looks like you unearthed a corpse. whats the point? slow night?

IGWT · January 27, 2009 11:40AM

it looks like you unearthed a corpse. whats the point? slow night?

Corpse? I don't think so . . .

coinman420 · January 27, 2009 11:48AM

<< <i>it looks like you unearthed a corpse. whats the point? slow night?

Corpse? I don't think so . . . >>

i confess i did not read the entire thread. just saw the original date was 2003 and called it a corpse

Geoman · January 27, 2009 12:28PM

I guess I can add my story as well here..........

I brought in my 1877 Indian Head Cent grade PCGS VG-8 to sell to my local coin dealer. He looked at the coin, stated it was over-graded, and that he can't give me a good price, as PCGS always overgrades their key date coins. I sold it to him for less than I should have. A few days later, it was up on this dealer's eBay listing and included in the description was ".... a accurately graded coin..." Typical dealer crap, bewittling your coins when you sell, but raising the grade when he sells.

RYK · January 27, 2009 12:34PM

Aside from a few flyers on ebay here and there, I tend to just stick with a very small group of dealers whom I know and trust. That helps eliminate a lot of potential problems.

Tonelover had the right answer all along. If only I had seen this thread earlier.

Shamika · February 24, 2009 5:57AM

I miss Singapore. Funny thread.

jakeblue · February 24, 2009 6:26AM

Aside from a few flyers on ebay here and there, I tend to just stick with a very small group of dealers whom I know and trust. That helps eliminate a lot of potential problems. >>

Agreed, for raw purchases. When buying certified (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG) I will buy anywhere. Look at the coin and make sure it is what you are paying for and always buy with a return policy.

fc · February 24, 2009 6:34AM

well now i know why tdn is so soured against ebay and determining
grade via pictures ;-)

Bcsican · February 24, 2009 7:08AM

I have to add my story to the list, but mine happened many

years ago when I was about 13 around 1967 - 1968. I went to my local coin store taking

my allowance with me to buy a twenty dollar St Gaudens. I found the coin I liked and had

to put it on lay away literally a $75.00 purchase paid out over a couple of weeks. It was a very nice 1927.

The second to last time I made a payment some other scum bag was in the shop looking to buy

some coins and looking over my shoulder asked what I was buying. He took the coin in hand

and said to the owner why didnt you ever show me this coin? The owner replied I sold it to this

kid the day I got it. I knew that coin after the few weeks making payments on it like my own

name. Checking out every nook and luster of gold on that coin. The day finally came I had enough

to pay off the balance to make the coin mine. Eagerly waited for my mom to drive me to the store

to make that purchase. When I walked in the owner pulled out the envelope that held the coin,

I gave him my last payment, upon getting to the car the coin was not the 1927, but was a 1924.

I knew the owner switched the coin selling to the scum bag that had seen it the week before.

The owner figured a kid will never know the difference, I knew the difference but what can a kid

do under those conditions. It stuck with me a life time, never have forgotten that, and ran it through

my mind a thousand and one times. I know I was not wrong, the scum bad dealer sold the coin to

the scum bag in the store the week prior. Thinking I would never know, that was a very bitter sweet

day for me know I had been duped, and there was nothing I could do about it. I hate to say it but I have

had less than stellar experiences and many dealers I have met over the years fit in the scum bag

catagory. Cudos to those that are the good ones, I know there are good and bad, but part of the reason

I love and hate coins shows is the people and the dealers. I still do not see enough "SUPERIOR CUSTOMER SERVICE".

zeebob · February 24, 2009 8:17AM

Bcsican, GREAT story.

My bad experience was simpler. Twenty years ago, I paid several hundred dollars for a group of 30 sheckles to a dealer in Pullman WA. Of course I didn't know a sheckle from pickle as far as numismatics went. But the dealer assured me these were the real thing. Biblical coins. A great piece of history these were. A nice investment for a college kid that really had no business spending money on coins. But biblical is good. Historical is good. Once in a life time opportunity. A fat greasy dirtbag on the corner of Stadium Way and Grand in a little shop set off the streets. To make a long story short, the "sheckles" turned out to be worthless rupies. When I brought the coins back, the dealer claimed ignorance and consignment as excuses. I'm a dumb puppy because I couldn't see through his act. Same dealer ripped me off a second time on a gun purchase. I think I sold the coins for $5 and the gun for a loss of $200. Never visited Mr. Fat Greasy Dirtbag again.

I was reminded a year ago of just how much of a dumb puppy I still am. I bought an 1861 Maximillion (sic) Peso for $400 as BU. Had it BB'd by PCGS and slabbed as AU details cleaned by NCS. Now I have a worthless chunk of metal in a plastic slab. I'm chalking that up to tuition regarding detecting cleaned coins. I confronted the dealer six months ago (not trying to return the coin). He told me he knew the coin was cleaned, "just look at it" he said. I asked why did you call it BU and price it as BU? He said, "oh it has such a nice strike." The he offered to buy it back at XF money - it was cleaned after all.

We live. We learn. Life goes on. Gotta have fun while we can. In the end we're all pushing up daisies and none of this stuff will matter a hill of beans.

truthteller · February 24, 2009 11:18AM

Lots of dealers overgraded, overhyped and duped me when I was growing up in the hobby. Instead of getting angry, I just educated myself. As the years went on, I became proficient in certain areas of the hobby. Then, I would come back to the same shops and dealers who were not so honest, and cherrypicked them on every visit. They never knew how many tens of thousands of dollars I made off of their ignorance. I remember one dishonest dealer who went out of business after being convicted of federal charges in the 1980's. As a kid, I asked to see a couple of coins. He showed them to me, I purchased them, only to tell him they were a rare variety. He began to turn red. Soon afterward, in was in the clink. Don't burn bridges, just be patient.

TRUTH

rld14 · February 24, 2009 2:25PM

I cherrypicked a dateless 1916 SLQ from a dealer's junk box. Said dealer was making snide remarks about me digging through his junk the entire time. I was under 10 years old at the time. I paid the $1-2 or whatever it was for the coin, and as I left I said "Well, it was worth it, some stupid dealer left a 1916 in his box of worn out quarters" or words to that effect. He tried to blow it off, I walked across the aisle, and showed it to another dealer who confirmed it was a 1916

I Still have the coin and would never sell it for all the tea (bills) in China

Top 5 Most Offensive Dealer Interactions of 2002

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