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Clemens or Maddux?
doubledragon
Posts: 23,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
These guys stats are very similar, who do you think was the better pitcher?
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doubledragon
Posts: 23,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
doubledragon
Posts: 23,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
doubledragon
Posts: 23,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Maddux.
Maddux is my number 1 all time
Maddux was all about control, he could pin-point his pitches, it only took an inning or so for him to get in synch with the Umpires strike zone, then he'd nibble at the corners. unbelievable.
I loved Maddux. But I will go against the grain and pick The Rocket
The Rocket had jet fuel. I'll take Maddux.
I always loved watching the movement of Maddux's pitches, he was like Picasso painting a picture.
Clemens for sure. Check out their career stats. Most stats are similar. Here's the BIG difference:
Clemens: Strikeouts 4,672; Win Pct .658; Hits Allowed 4,185
Maddux: Strikeouts 3,371; Win Pct .610; Hits Allowed 4,726
aside from his larger than life presence on the mound, Roger Clemens had a way to cause commotion off the field.
--- about the devotion of Japanese and South Korean fans during the World Baseball Classic in 2006: "None of the dry cleaners were open, they were all at the game." when that got out it really rubbed people the wrong way.
--- he also tended to get sweetheart deals from his new Teams. apparently he didn't like to travel with the other players when he wasn't pitching, when he was pitching he didn't like to carry his luggage. said Jason Giambi, ""I'd carry his bags for him as long as he's out on the mound."
keets: Umm, what, may I ask, does your comment have to do with the topic: Clemens or Maddux?
Clemens without hesitation
I will agree Roger is a douche outside the lines
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Clemens all day.
Maddux without a doubt.
I saw Maddux pitch more in person and gained an appreciation for his command. Pinpoint control and was able to use the strike zone to his advantage based upon who was umpiring that day. The perfect example that you don't need to throw the ball 100 mph to consistently get hitters out. Most young modern day pitchers should watch the way he pitched. I like Clemens but the steroid suspicions move me towards Maddux.
JRR300 wrote: "[Maddux] was able to use the strike zone to his advantage based upon who was umpiring that day."
Personally, I'd call that comment a vote for Clemens, not Maddux.
When the overall strike zone/the computer box and grading of the umpires came about Maddux was not nearly as effective. Both great pitchers in their prime. I'll take Clemens.
I had heard a lot about Maddux, but being an AL guy, not seen him much. Finally saw him in an inter league game against my Twins.
Maddux throws a pitch to a RH batter that's at least two inches low AND two inches outside and it gets called a strike. I;m thinking "Wow that was a bad call" then I see it over and over again and I just didn't get it then and still don't. Those pitches were balls and were pretty much unhittable. After that, I tried to watch Maddux if he was pitching and saw the same thing, over and over again.
Right then I understood why he was so good.
Being that AL guy, I got to see a lot more of Clemens. His pitches were unhittable too, but they were more often in the strike zone.
I look at it a couple ways;
Clemens blew you away. Great pitcher who challenged you.
Maddux got you out without throwing strikes, so he was a better_ pitcher_ .
I'll take Clemens every day. I don't care for "nibblers" even if they are very good.
it's amazing to me that during the decade of the 1990's with the exception of a couple years one of these guys was holding the CY Young Award over his head. Clemons with seven overall and Maddux with four consecutive is remarkable.
I really liked Clemens but seeing Maddux pitch countless times in person I gotta go with him.
Clemens and I believe by a fair margin.
First and very significantly, Clemens pitched almost his entire career in the AL east. Mad dog played his entire career in the NL pitching to 8 hitters and one automatic out everytime through the lineup. this is a reason why clemens has a significant edge in ERA+ and WAR
it is amazing that the two had almost the exact same workload over the coarse of their careers. while Maddux was known as a control pitcher, their WHIP is almost the same. Clemens also had very good control. great control for a power pitcher. he surrendered about 1 bb per 9 more than Maddux. Maddux gave up about 1 hit per 9 more than clemens.
control is really a wash.
Clemens was a league leader more than Maddux. while pitching in a harder league.
Clemens wins in almost every rate stat
the importance of league cannot be overstated.
when Maddux pitched in interleague games which he did 43 times, a fairly big sample size, he was definitely not the same pitcher.
his ERA climbed to 3.88 and WHIP went to 1.233.
I can only imagine what clemens final numbers and rate stats could have been had he been able to pitch in the NL his entire career. it would have been staggering.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
craig44: Great (and detailed) summary. There's absolutely no rational debate -- Clemens was certainly better than Maddux. My personal conclusion: "Any serious baseball fan who says Maddux was better than Clemens simply didn't like Clemens' personality."
I would agree with that. He was not necessarily the most likeable player, but he was certainly better than maddux. that is really nothing against Mad Dog by the way. I think Clemens certainly ranks in the top 3 all time and is very possibly the greatest pitcher ever.
I also think everyone knows, or at least those who watched in the 90's, that both Glavine and Maddux were for some reason allowed a larger strike zone than most others. Imagine if Pedro, Clemens or Unit would have had that same advantage?
Here is a good way to look at Clemens career: If you take Koufax and Pedro and combine their HOF careers, you basically get Clemens career. He was that dominant pitching the bulk of his career against the AL east.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
craig44: Yep, I like your summary above.
Clemens
this is a great point. between the 2, they won CY in 91, 92,93,94,95,97,98 and clemens deserved the cy in 90 but bob welch won it because he won 27 games
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I can only imagine what clemens final numbers and rate stats could have been had he been able to pitch in the NL his entire career. it would have been staggering.
it would be interesting to know how Clemons was helped by the DH rule and Maddux was hurt by no DH in the NL. also, it'd be hard to know how Clemons would have been affected in the non-DH NL if he pitched his entire career in that League.
Maddux was a more crafty pitcher and he was great. Clemens threw absolutely dominant pitches and was far more intimidating. If the whole juicing stuff never came out, the Rocket would likely be called the best ever by many.
Nicely said.
Clemens 20 strikeouts in 86
https://youtu.be/V8B--bIX_3k
https://youtu.be/whkr9Vshncg
.......
His 20 strikeouts in 96
thisistheshow: Thanks very much for digging out those old videos -- I enjoyed watching.
@charliej2356 You're welcome. I'm happy you enjoyed them.