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1957 Roosevelt dime what is this raised medal from?

HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

Ive have had this specimen for about 10 years. It has toned since a med grey tone . My question is what the
Items seen behinde the head east. Sort of looks like this ~~~~ the marks are raised not incuse. Die gouge? Rased clash....they are not reeding marks they be incuse.....these are raised medal.
In hand they sort of look like parts of a word or numbers.


"That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

Comments

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭



    Full view images

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess is a strikethrough and what you are seeing is fragments of the reverse design.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess would be clash marks. The reverse die clashes with the obverse die leaving an impression that gets filled with melt.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 5,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2021 12:39PM

    I don’t know. But here’s an overlay I just made in photoshop express. Unless there was a rotated die involved, this is what the die alignment would be if/when a clash occurred. I tried making an overlay with your coin images, but the toning made everything disappear in the area behind Roosevelt’s head so I made this with an image of an un-toned Roosevelt

    Mr_Spud

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,877 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Not clashed dies, imo
    And not a struck thru either, imo.

    Photos are a bit dark - it's possible
    they're contact marks from the reeded edge
    of another coin - so they would be raised
    on one side, and into the surface of the
    coin on the other side.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 5,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2021 12:22PM

    Correction, I think it’s like this. I haven’t done an overlay in a while and I think I’m supposed to flip one of the sides like this. Maybe if the die was rotated some that scalloped oak leaf might end up where your weird mark is. Or it might just be a reeding mark from a larger coin where the edge of the larger coin made that kind of mark.

    Mr_Spud

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't see a raised medal. I do see some raised metal, FWIW. >:)

  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 5,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2021 12:38PM

    Here’s another Roosevelt overlay from http://www.maddieclashes.com


    Edit- I see Fred W. replied while I was making overlays. I’d go with what he said

    Mr_Spud

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Its not reeding marks not at all, i have seen plenty of such over the decades of collecting. I believe its some sort of clash. As the RICA of America seems to be seen on the surface. I can see in hand what looks to be ICA to the south of those marks.
    There's no cuts as another stated the medal is raised. A finger nail can feel the raised lumps.
    I wish I had imaged before this specimen toned. It is harder to read and image from the darker tone.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mr_Spud said:
    Correction, I think it’s like this. I haven’t done an overlay in a while and I think I’m supposed to flip one of the sides like this. Maybe if the die was rotated some that scalloped oak leaf might end up where your weird mark is. Or it might just be a reeding mark from a larger coin where the edge of the larger coin made that kind of mark.

    Looking at the specimen in hand this would be the correct orientation and as I said the RICA mostly the CA can be seen with a loop south of the artifacts that are raised.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • Mr_SpudMr_Spud Posts: 5,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you can see ICA Then maybe it is the edge of the scalloped oak leaves

    Mr_Spud

  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭✭

    I did a quick and only somewhat precise graphical comparison/measurement. For what is worth the peak to peak distance of the marks and the reeding appear to be the same.

    The red lines are the same length:

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That may be on the three raised larger lumps however what you dont see is the parishal smaller lumps that dont measure up to your measurement. I am just about 100 % sure its not reeding.
    I do have a scope but the skin color due to the tone hides the items on the surface. With a loop and playiny with the lighting you can see RICA south of the 3 larger artifacts.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,591 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am thinking that the obverse die somehow struck a previously struck coin but only caught the reeded edge and it left three little indents in the die. No clue really just guessing at possibilities.

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So what I decided to do is send it to Mr_spud tomorrow . That way another member will have a look in hand as to what I cannot image .

    Thanks again to all for your input. And we shall revisit this thread in about a week.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • Steven59Steven59 Posts: 9,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Should be interesting - stay tuned......................

    "When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gumby1234 said:
    I am thinking that the obverse die somehow struck a previously struck coin but only caught the reeded edge and it left three little indents in the die. No clue really just guessing at possibilities.

    Again a case harden steel die is not going to be indented by a silver dime. Besides the items you are looking at arent incuse. They are lumps on the surface ,there's no cuts, no indents. And what most cannot see do to the tone hides the items on the surface that are smaller than the 3 ~~~ artifacts. There are other raised spots much smaller south of the 3, as well west of the 3.
    Its been mailed ,and its only a $1.30 coin so if any others afterwards would like to see in hand thats no problem. As its all an education for us all...

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • gumby1234gumby1234 Posts: 5,591 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was thinking the points of the reading are sharp and made small indents on the die which in turn would strike coins with raised lumps

    Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a contact mark from the reeding of another coin. It's not a die issue. The edge of another coin hit your coin after it was struck.

    The hit was at a shallow angle, so the depressed area to the left of the displaced metal is barely noticeable.

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 24, 2021 7:52PM

    Examination with a stereo microscope could help to see if the areas NW of the raised curves are depressed,
    as in @Oldhoopster's theory.
    It might take a really good stereo microscope, though.

    If raised reverse features like RICA and leaves are clashed into the obverse die, they are incuse on the reverse die,
    and they are raised on the obverse die, so they are incuse on coins made from that die.

    However, the field next to the leaves is an incuse reverse feature, raised on the reverse die, and incuse on a clashed
    obverse die. So that field area would be raised on a coin struck from a clashed die. However, we are seeing isolated
    raised curves here, not a raised surface that would result from a clash.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,657 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Raised METAL. Medal is a struck or cast collectible.

    thefinn
  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭✭

    @HalfDimeDude said:
    That may be on the three raised larger lumps however what you dont see is the parishal smaller lumps that dont measure up to your measurement. I am just about 100 % sure its not reeding.
    I do have a scope but the skin color due to the tone hides the items on the surface. With a loop and playiny with the lighting you can see RICA south of the 3 larger artifacts.

    The very small, offset mark below does not line up, that is correct. The larger one on top does.

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Oldhoopster said:
    It's a contact mark from the reeding of another coin. It's not a die issue. The edge of another coin hit your coin after it was struck.

    The hit was at a shallow angle, so the depressed area to the left of the displaced metal is barely noticeable.

    Then in your explanation the coin was struck multiple times as the 3 large lumps have smaller ones to the west of the also to the south of them....artifacts that are hard to see with the tone on the coin and lighting on its surface.
    I will try and get the specimen to Clint next he does wonders with his scope.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 25, 2021 5:55AM

    @yosclimber said:
    Examination with a stereo microscope could help to see if the areas NW of the raised curves are depressed,
    as in @Oldhoopster's theory.
    It might take a really good stereo microscope, though.

    If raised reverse features like RICA and leaves are clashed into the obverse die, they are incuse on the reverse die,
    and they are raised on the obverse die, so they are incuse on coins made from that die.

    However, the field next to the leaves is an incuse reverse feature, raised on the reverse die, and incuse on a clashed
    obverse die. So that field area would be raised on a coin struck from a clashed die. However, we are seeing isolated
    raised curves here, not a raised surface that would result from a clash.

    Clint I will have Tim to forward on to you next..... if anyone can solve the artifacts on the surface I would put my trust in you. Esspecially after the 1848 h 10 artifact in the date that you solved with your scope.

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @HalfDimeDude said:

    @Oldhoopster said:
    It's a contact mark from the reeding of another coin. It's not a die issue. The edge of another coin hit your coin after it was struck.

    The hit was at a shallow angle, so the depressed area to the left of the displaced metal is barely noticeable.

    Then in your explanation the coin was struck multiple times as the 3 large lumps have smaller ones to the west of the also to the south of them....artifacts that are hard to see with the tone on the coin and lighting on its surface.
    I will try and get the specimen to Clint next he does wonders with his scope.

    No. The 3 prominent lumps are from 1 hit.

    The other marks are chatter from other hits. Not unexpected from a high speed, high volume manufacturing line.

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,867 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Paddy,
    I don't know if my stereo microscope is good enough.
    And I am out of state for a few months, so I don't have access to it.

    • Clint
  • HalfDimeDudeHalfDimeDude Posts: 1,206 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ok thanks Clint

    "That's why I wander and follow La Vie Dansante"

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