Did Not Cross (DNC) reasoning (Rant)
oih82w8
Posts: 12,407 ✭✭✭✭✭
I received the email notification that my grades (on a crossover) were ready, and to my surprise, two of three DNC at present grade, one met (or exceeded). I called customer service (CS) asking for the reasoning behind the DNC, did not meet the grade requirement or if it would have warranted a non-grade (cleaned, tooled, scratch, etc...) and the CS could not give me an answer other than the specification was not met. These were old white ANACS holders with straight grades. I am fairly certain that I requested at the present grade (or higher), I do not have my copy of the order form with me. I asked the CS since the coins are still in their possession to run them through as ANY grade. He stated that I would have to resubmit them. I asked about supplementing the original order to make a pen/ink change for an ANY grade and he repeated that it would have to be submitted.
I understand that sometimes criteria is not met, but what I don't agree with is WHY the criteria was not met is not indicated on the coin/form. Another business, not to be named, will explain why the criteria was not met on a submission with a phone call, but I reckon that PCGS has such a backlog of submittals that it cannot be bothered with a note of explanation.
Thank you for your time and comments.
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Comments
I feel your pain... consider yourself lucky you did not say ANY on your original order. I have had a few OWS ANACS slabs come back as questionable color or cleaned when they were straight graded ANACS holders. Once removed from the holder all bets are off. Chances are they just didn't feel they warranted the next grade and not a genie.
In my experience, graders do not want to make the determination through a holder. Sometimes things are hidden or are not as clear so they err on the side of caution. More often than not, I just crack and submit raw.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
To my knowledge, PCGS has never offered the service of speaking over the phone about why submissions didn't cross. Nor have they ever allowed altering a submission after it's already been through the grading room. So, bottom line, I'm not entirely sure what you're ranting about.
FWIW, I usually took results I had questions about to Long Beach and showed them to David Hall (or others) during the Ask the Expert sessions, and frequently got useful information in doing so.
That's not a new policy and it's extremely unlikely that the customer service rep would have known the reason why the coin failed to cross.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This has happened to me before, so they are basically following the submission rules. Asking why, can be frustrating.
Odds are very high they simply did not cross at the same grade that you requested. I usually say on the form to cross at a grade less now, unless I really want the coin to stay in the older holder.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I feel your pain. I don't cross many coins, but recently I've had a few come back as 'DNC'. I would have loved to know why.
Dave
If I was running PCGS I wouldn't reveal why coins didn't cross either as much as I'm curious myself as a customer. If they started giving reasons they open the floodgates for disputes from everyone and makes their life more difficult.
Can you share the order so that we can look at it? It seems to me that there might be some information in the order that would help, and if not on the on-line order, on the return labels when you receive them.
The onus has always been to be on the coin to be a slam dunk to cross because TPG don't really know what they will find when they open the holder. You can mitigate that a bit by cross at any grade but i get why that sometimes doesn't make sense.
Then sometimes the holder colors the TPGs vision and holds some coins back on the flip side of DNCs. This is why most dealers play the crack out game opposed to the crossing game unless the downside is simply too great.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
This idea can be expanded further in the scenario presented by the OP. For sake of argument, let's say the ANACS coin is MS65. OP calls in and finds out PCGS thinks the coin is 64, so he asks that the coin be switched to cross at any grade. Now the coin gets cracked and they find some hidden issue, and the coin grades at 63 or 62 (or maybe there was damage and it's a details coin). OP is now irate that the 64 he was "promised" is a lower grade or a no-grade. Granted this could still happen for a cross at the same grade, but I think there's even something in the submission terms about this risk. If one wants the coin in a PCGS holder no matter what, crack it or just submit it outright to be crossed no matter what; the coin will be evaluated raw and graded accordingly.
...and they are out the door of our host. Oh well, its part of the crossover game. Normally I would put ANY in the grade, but this time I placed the grade that the old white ANACS holders were in. They are some nice toners, one passed, one did not, and thought that there should be no problem making the grade. It's the variety attribution that has me a little riled and the lack of TrueViews. I paid the fee for their opinion and got it. This reminds me of the book "Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn".
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
I get your pain, and it sucks for people just looking for good info. The hard part is that if everything got an explanation, then they could be in the position of having masses of “crossovers” submitted for a 2nd opinion, regardless of the contents. This could turn into a game in itself and I don’t blame them for not getting into it (even though, like you, I’d really like to know).
my two cents: calling after coins have been graded and asking to change the request of "same grade" to "any grade" is a little over the top and equates to requesting two grade sessions for the price of one. you've been around the block a few times, you should know better. as to why the DNC, my hunch is that when the coins return to you a closer inspection of them will reveal the truth. it always does for me if I'm critical and honest.
I believe that a submission at "any grade" means PCGS will look at coins in-holder to determine authenticity and no-grade problems. then they grade the coin raw. a "same grade" means they have to authenticate, assure no-grade and grade the coin through the plastic. as keyman stated, they'll err on the side of caution and shouldn't be blamed for that.
Yeah, it's frustrating, but that's the game. You're lucky one crossed. I gave up on the crossover game a while ago. Strictly from the numbers, you have to pay 2.5 grading fees for every successful crossover (40% success rate). If you need a coin in a certain holder it's always easier to buy it that way.
This happened to me many times. Some will crossed once I resubmit it again and again. Some will not. In fact couple of them were graded fake once I cracked them out of the holder
If I submitted some NGC crossovers and stipulated any grade was acceptable why would two come back DNC? They were proof Seated 50c and 25c.
My guess is that either they missed the cross at any grade part or they thought the coins didn’t merit straight grades. In other words, perhaps they thought the coins were QT or altered, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thank you!
Maybe a no grade or details grade?
Mystery solved- the little paper they return with the coins says “Altered Surfaces” even though both straight graded at NGC.
I had the same feelings about my first ever PCGS rejection form. I complained on this very forum 14 years ago and was told very succintly:
1) You sent your coins in to crossover for a reason; You thought that PCGS was a better judge of your coin's grade, or you thought the coin would be more valuable, or you didn't trust the company whose holder that the coin was currently in,
2) You shouldn't expect them to educate you as you paid for their opinion and you received it and if you didn't agree with them, then you have the choice of not using them again. This would also be detrimental to their business plan. They are the experts not you and they feel no reason to try to educate you to become one for the grading fee.
Boy was I irate at the time. Moreso, for this comment than the grades.
Were I a decision maker at PCGS, I might make a suggestion for a special fee for coin grading/crossover, expensive enough to prevent trusting customers from using it, but would specifically explain the grading decisions made for your particular coin. That might or might not be accepted by upper management, but then that is their decision.
My recommendation is to crack them out which is what I have done ever since. I only send in about 10 or 15 per year for that very reason.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Now that NGC's Set Registry includes PCGS slabs and also gives credit for CACs, I've come to the conclusion that if I have a NGC coin that is also CAC, I'm not going to take the risk of trying to cross that coin to PCGS and then hope to get a CAC. Hopefully, someday PCGS will allow NGC coins in their Set Registry as I do prefer the design of PCGS slabs and fact that PCGS storage boxes fit into my safe deposit box.
When you get a 65, do they explain to you why it was not a 66?
Repetition of ignorance is ignorance raised to the power two.
I wouldn't hold my breath.
The order for this OP arrived at the house today and I will see what was "noted"...if any.
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Any notes of note?
Any pictures?
No, no notes.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...