The current state of MLB

PaulMaul · August 8, 2021 7:47AM

I’m just curious…is there anyone here who follows baseball who thinks the sport is better than ever? I’m trying to check my tendency toward being an aging curmudgeon, but this sport just seems less entertaining than it’s ever been by orders of magnitude. I’m not a dallasactuary and don’t claim to understand exactly what went wrong or how to fix it. But as someone who tries to hang with Mets games on a daily basis, I can tell you it takes a lot of effort. Yes, I’m extra annoyed because the team sucks right now, but it’s way more than that. It’s like everyone is just passively sitting around making countless pitching changes and waiting for something good to happen. There seems to be very little situational consciousness or understanding among players, and very little creativity among managers.

Again, I don’t know what can be done, all I know is, the Mets are the only team in any sport I have ever been a fan of, and I would rather watch any NFL game at this point. Oh how I miss the Mets and Cardinals squaring off at the end of ‘85 with electricity in the air and on the edge of my seat.

JoeBanzai · August 8, 2021 8:56AM

For me the pace of the game has gotten too slow.

Pitchers take too much time, hitters step out too much, conversations on the mound have to involve the entire infield.

I don't mind a game that lasts awhile, as long as things move along.

The umpires could/should be given the authority to get things moving. We shouldn't need a clock, but I would rather see that than what's going on now.

PaulMaul · August 8, 2021 9:13AM

I don’t think pace of game is the only problem.

keets · August 8, 2021 10:00AM

pace of game

this might be a good example of what is wrong with MLB, they continually try to fix something that was never broken and the resulting changes only make what they think they're improving even worse. that means additional changes to fix things, and it just goes on and on.............................

I understand that some "COVID related" changes are slated to be removed next year, but those adjustments fundamentally changed the game: 7-inning doubleheaders and runners to start extra-innings. to my way of thinking, it all began with efforts to help the offense back in the 1960's with the lowering of the mound and shrinking strike-zone, then it culminated in the use of the Designated Hitter. those changes to help hitters radically changed strategy, began the advent of Relief Pitching as we know it today and caused the problem that began where we have ended............................a slowed down game.

instead of forcing hitters to figure out how to hit dominant pitchers, instead of forcing Managers to employ strategy to score runs, instead of making pitchers pace themselves to pitch complete games, well, if you're old-school like me you should get the idea. the game is no longer fun for me to watch. it consists of players trying to hit homers and pitchers throwing as hard as they can to strike everyone out. no more opposite-field bat control, no more hit-and-run, no more pitching inside.

by trying to speed up the "pace of the game" for the younger fans who have the attention span of a gnat, a not expected outcome has taken place --- older, lifelong fans like myself have walked away. I haven't even thought of watching a game this season, don't care to. George Carlin had it right 50 years ago, Baseball is pastoral, a game can go on forever. if you want something that's rigidly timed, watch Football, it'll end even if they need to go to sudden death.

PaulMaul · August 8, 2021 10:07AM

The Covid rule changes are ridiculous. If you have a series between two teams where one has a terrible bullpen and the other does not, one rain out changes the entire balance of power in two thirds of the series. Two seven inning games makes bullpen quality nearly irrelevant. Yet I don’t hear teams who have allocated resources toward a good bullpen complaining bitterly, as they should be.

JoeBanzai · August 8, 2021 4:31PM

@PaulMaul said:
I don’t think pace of game is the only problem.

I don't either, but to me, keeping the batter in the box and getting the pitcher to throw the ball without taking 30 seconds (or more) would be the easiest, most effective ways greatly improve the game.

Maybe then you wouldn't have to end games in the 7th inning or put a guy on 2nd base in an extra inning game.

Just get them to move their butts!

In case you youngsters have never seen a "properly" played game;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPrg4pF-vm8

keets · August 8, 2021 5:16PM

if you jump up to 2:19:15 it's clear that the current "pace of play" everyone whines about is nothing new, things really slow down, but that's fine and just baseball.

grote15 · August 8, 2021 5:17PM

I dont think the pace of the game is nearly as much an issue as all the asinine rule changes.

grote15 · August 8, 2021 5:19PM

@keets said:
if you jump up to 2:19:15 it's clear that the current "pace of play" everyone whines about is nothing new, things really slow down, but that's fine and just baseball.

That delay was to turn the lights on at Fenway. Notice, too, how quickly the pitcher delivers the ball to home plate once the batter steps into the box.

keets · August 8, 2021 5:22PM

no, not even close. it was the same old thing that infuriates everyone, the pitcher stalling for time with the rosin bag and cleaning the rubber, the batter stepping 10 feet out of the box to get in some practice swings, the catcher rubbing up the ball or going to the grass to throw out to the pitcher. it's baseball and is supposed to be laid back.

JoeBanzai · August 8, 2021 5:42PM

@grote15 said:

@keets said:
if you jump up to 2:19:15 it's clear that the current "pace of play" everyone whines about is nothing new, things really slow down, but that's fine and just baseball.

That delay was to turn the lights on at Fenway. Notice, too, how quickly the pitcher delivers the ball to home plate once the batter steps into the box.

During the entire game the pace of play is astronomically faster and more enjoyable. Perhaps the umpire could have gotten the lights turned on a bit faster, a once during the game delay, as opposed to the now days pitcher who takes forever to decide what to throw and when he finally does the hitter steps out and we start the whole thing over again.

Laid back is one thing more sleep inducing than watching grass grow is another.

The other thing I liked was the lack of garbage being added to the game, I watched a game today and they felt compelled to tell me several times that in a different game played today, Joe Shlabotnik hit his 20th home run of the year.

grote15 · August 8, 2021 5:42PM

@keets said:
no, not even close. it was the same old thing that infuriates everyone, the pitcher stalling for time with the rosin bag and cleaning the rubber, the batter stepping 10 feet out of the box to get in some practice swings, the catcher rubbing up the ball or going to the grass to throw out to the pitcher. it's baseball and is supposed to be laid back.

You need to watch and listen this time. at 2:19:15.

There is no question putchers delivered the ball more quickly to the plate back then. That's why games took 2 hours instead of 3. But that's not why the OP is complaining about the state of the game regardless.

JoeBanzai · August 8, 2021 6:04PM

@grote15 said:

@keets said:
no, not even close. it was the same old thing that infuriates everyone, the pitcher stalling for time with the rosin bag and cleaning the rubber, the batter stepping 10 feet out of the box to get in some practice swings, the catcher rubbing up the ball or going to the grass to throw out to the pitcher. it's baseball and is supposed to be laid back.

You need to watch and listen this time. at 2:19:15.

There is no question putchers delivered the ball more quickly to the plate back then. That's why games took 2 hours instead of 3. But that's not why the OP is complaining about the state of the game regardless.

The OP says "Again, I don’t know what can be done" my response was to have the umpire take charge and get things moving.

My wife who is less than a casual fan even thinks it silly to put a guy on second base in an extra inning game, I didn't bother telling her about the 7 inning rule for the 2nd game of a doubleheader.

I did watch the Twins win today, there were a few annoying moments, but it was not horrible.

grote15 · August 8, 2021 6:29PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@grote15 said:

@keets said:
no, not even close. it was the same old thing that infuriates everyone, the pitcher stalling for time with the rosin bag and cleaning the rubber, the batter stepping 10 feet out of the box to get in some practice swings, the catcher rubbing up the ball or going to the grass to throw out to the pitcher. it's baseball and is supposed to be laid back.

You need to watch and listen this time. at 2:19:15.

There is no question putchers delivered the ball more quickly to the plate back then. That's why games took 2 hours instead of 3. But that's not why the OP is complaining about the state of the game regardless.

The OP says "Again, I don’t know what can be done" my response was to have the umpire take charge and get things moving.

My wife who is less than a casual fan even thinks it silly to put a guy on second base in an extra inning game, I didn't bother telling her about the 7 inning rule for the 2nd game of a doubleheader.

I did watch the Twins win today, there were a few annoying moments, but it was not horrible.

Fortunately, I read that the 7-inning DH and runner on 2nd to start the inning in extra innings may be discontinued for next season.

charliej2356 · August 8, 2021 7:05PM

Perhaps you guys are simply watching (or rooting for) the wrong team. Start watching the San Fran Giants. They're really fun to watch -- only a few super stars, the manager plays most of his bench in most games, the players root for each other, the players DON'T act cool/arrogant/"hey, look what I just did" when they succeed, etc. And they're really good -- they play until the final out. Oh, and these very likeable guys have the best record in baseball!

charliej2356 · August 8, 2021 7:13PM

Oh, and one more thing -- the Giants are led by the most likeable person in baseball -- BUSTER POSEY.

JoeBanzai · August 8, 2021 8:59PM

@grote15 said:

@JoeBanzai said:

@grote15 said:

@keets said:
no, not even close. it was the same old thing that infuriates everyone, the pitcher stalling for time with the rosin bag and cleaning the rubber, the batter stepping 10 feet out of the box to get in some practice swings, the catcher rubbing up the ball or going to the grass to throw out to the pitcher. it's baseball and is supposed to be laid back.

You need to watch and listen this time. at 2:19:15.

There is no question putchers delivered the ball more quickly to the plate back then. That's why games took 2 hours instead of 3. But that's not why the OP is complaining about the state of the game regardless.

The OP says "Again, I don’t know what can be done" my response was to have the umpire take charge and get things moving.

My wife who is less than a casual fan even thinks it silly to put a guy on second base in an extra inning game, I didn't bother telling her about the 7 inning rule for the 2nd game of a doubleheader.

I did watch the Twins win today, there were a few annoying moments, but it was not horrible.

Fortunately, I read that the 7-inning DH and runner on 2nd to start the inning in extra innings may be discontinued for next season.

I hope so!

@charliej2356 said:
Perhaps you guys are simply watching (or rooting for) the wrong team. Start watching the San Fran Giants. They're really fun to watch -- only a few super stars, the manager plays most of his bench in most games, the players root for each other, the players DON'T act cool/arrogant/"hey, look what I just did" when they succeed, etc. And they're really good -- they play until the final out. Oh, and these very likeable guys have the best record in baseball!

Nothing against the Giants, and Posey seems like a cool dude, but I usually follow the local teams. Today, I tried to watch some of the Cus/White Sox game and gave up after 17 commercials and watched "NetFlix".

Estil · August 8, 2021 9:57PM

@JoeBanzai said:

@PaulMaul said:
I don’t think pace of game is the only problem.

I don't either, but to me, keeping the batter in the box and getting the pitcher to throw the ball without taking 30 seconds (or more) would be the easiest, most effective ways greatly improve the game.

Maybe then you wouldn't have to end games in the 7th inning or put a guy on 2nd base in an extra inning game.

Just get them to move their butts!

In case you youngsters have never seen a "properly" played game;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPrg4pF-vm8

Oh yes, remember the days of REAL pennant races (1993 or earlier) where there were no silly wild cards to fall pack on? 1967 AL was one of the best ones ever...four teams still mathematically in it with just a week left in the season.

charliej2356 · August 9, 2021 7:25AM

As a 65-yr-old retired guy, I have no problem with the pace of the game (plenty of time to grab a beer, go to the bathroom, etc). But for those who would like to invest only 90 minutes instead of 3 hours, just record your game and watch it at your preferred pace.

Alfonz24 · August 9, 2021 7:57AM

Players pre Free agency - All about the team,
Post Free Agency - All about me getting paid and endorsements.

MCMLVTopps · August 9, 2021 8:57AM

Coupla comments.

Why is there no DH in National League games? Pitchers should learn to hit, Ohtani is doing pretty well.
Why are double headers now only 7 innings long?
Put a runner on 2nd base in extra inning games?
Unrelated, but kinda. Some announcers should learn how to call a game. There is a certain Red Sox announcer, who is filling in for Remy, who is ill with cancer, who constantly says "right there". It's annoying, as well as his and other announcers making analytical comments that dissect the game into nonsense. How about more silence. ARod is AWFUL!!

The All-Star game being moved from Atlanta to Denver was one of the worst bush league actions ever taken by a Commissioner. Leave the politics out of the game. A big ceremony was planned to honor the recently deceased Hank Aaron, beloved Atlanta Brave player, not to mention the detrimental impact on the local economy by this decision. And NO, the changes enabled a more secure voting system here, but I don't care to get into that. One man should not have such authority over something totally unrelated to baseball.

charliej2356 · August 9, 2021 11:28AM

"Pitchers should learn to hit, ..." What a bizarre comment. We all learn what we're capable of learning -- not many people can learn to hit major-league pitching.

PaulMaul · August 9, 2021 1:07PM

@charliej2356 said:
"Pitchers should learn to hit, ..." What a bizarre comment. We all learn what we're capable of learning -- not many people can learn to hit major-league pitching.

The closest thing to a pitcher is a goalie. They both do their very important defensive job and are not expected to contribute to offense, at least not in a meaningful way.

MCMLVTopps · August 9, 2021 2:49PM

@charliej2356 said:
"Pitchers should learn to hit, ..." What a bizarre comment. We all learn what we're capable of learning -- not many people can learn to hit major-league pitching.

Really?

We're not talking "many people" here, we're talking major league pitchers. And, I certainly don't expect any National League pitcher to be leading the RBI or OBP stats, nor a big base stealer. However, a key hit here and there might prove to be very beneficial should the pitcher find himself in a no outs and RISP situation.

Then why do all the National League pitchers even bother to swing? If they have to bat, shouldn't they at least see if they could improve their skills and add to the offensive side of the game. To follow your thinking, then they should all just stand in the batter's box, try not to get hit and hope for 4 balls.

grote15 · August 9, 2021 3:23PM

I'm old school with that topic and want pitchers to hit, also. Pitchers coming up to bat adds a layer of strategy to the game with double switches, bunts, etc. I know offense and scoring runs is the thing but I prefer to see pitchers come to bat. Also, if you decide to throw at someone, you should have to face the opposing pitcher, as well, not let some other guy in the lineup take the heat.

charliej2356 · August 9, 2021 4:01PM

"We're not talking "many people" here, we're talking major league pitchers." Another bizarre comment. Pitching and hitting at the major-league level require two completely different sets of skills. Did you ever play baseball at any level?

grote15 · August 9, 2021 5:14PM

Also just saw a 14-team playoff format will be discussed in the offseason. Remember the significance of pennant races?

JRR300 · August 9, 2021 5:40PM

Okay, as a die hard baseball fan, I think there are several things that have made he game more difficult to watch.

Swing plane. Teams now play for the long ball. Batters are not nearly as concerned with contact as they are trying to hit home runs. Less contact, more strikeouts.
Strike zone. Will someone please tell the umpires to call strikes and do it consistently so the batters can get comfortable with what's a strike and what's a ball. The most frustrating part of watching is to see an umpire call a certain pitch a ball for 7 innings and in the guts of the game, the zone changes and it becomes a strike. Calling more strikes will move the game along faster.
What ever happened to the stolen base? How about hit and run plays? Action plays that would occur during the game, giving more thought to the game itself.

These are the 3 big ones in my mind. I'm almost ready to have the computer call balls and strikes the way that games are umpired. Just terrible.

PaulMaul · August 9, 2021 6:28PM

@grote15 said:
Also just saw a 14-team playoff format will be discussed in the offseason. Remember the significance of pennant races?

God, what a horrible idea.

They refuse to budge on shortening the schedule, but expect people to care about 162 regular season games when basically every decent team is guaranteed to make the post season. Ridiculous.

coolstanley · August 9, 2021 10:16PM

No salary cap makes it a lousy league. Haven't watched a game in 5 years.

Tabe · August 9, 2021 10:42PM

@JRR300 said:
3. What ever happened to the stolen base? How about hit and run plays? Action plays that would occur during the game, giving more thought to the game itself.

Stolen bases, basically, are too hard to get for the return they provide. Teams average 75% success this year on steals. That's a lot better than in the past - in 1980, for example, it was 67%. But 75% on steals hurts the team. If you're under 80%, you're hurting the team. Better to not do that. Teams understand this a lot better than they did 40 years ago.

Kinda the same deal with the hit and run. The math just doesn't add up and it's harder to be successful. There's a lot less contact than before - you're basically asking for trouble with a hit and run.

Justacommeman · August 9, 2021 11:33PM

It's a train wreck but it's not a new phenomenon.

m

1951WheatiesPremium · August 10, 2021 2:52AM

Sanermetrics have lead to lots of improvements when applied correctly but also lots of bad conclusions and it currently dominates the thinking and decision making across baseball.

Baseball is a sport and not a simulation and you must take into account the talents of the actual players you have in front of you rather than only the data.

I will give one, isolated example that is pervasive in baseball. It is not the only one but it’s the one that’s easiest to illustrate.

The stolen base.

It’s not slower runners and it’s not awareness by pitchers and it’s not catchers having great arms.

Simply put, stolen bases are deemed an unnecessary risk in saberworld as the base gained is not worth the risk of making an out, according to the data. There are 27 outs in a game and they are precious so you do not risk making one - that is the essence of it.

That’s a bad conclusion. A guy like Rickey Henderson should be running wild on the base paths. A stolen base does more than advance a runner; it puts the ball in play unnecessarily, it distracts the pitcher, it excites the crowd and in rare cases can even lead to two bases gained on an overthrow or misplay.

Sports is at least in part about watching athletes take risks and that’s where the excitement comes from for the fans. Because sabermetrics is about playing risk averse baseball and following the formula consistently and without question to produce more desirable outcomes.

Risk averse is boring.

JoeBanzai · August 10, 2021 6:03AM

@1951WheatiesPremium said:

>

Simply put, stolen bases are deemed an unnecessary risk in saberworld as the base gained is not worth the risk of making an out, according to the data. There are 27 outs in a game and they are precious so you do not risk making one - that is the essence of it.

That’s a bad conclusion. A guy like Rickey Henderson should be running wild on the base paths. A stolen base does more than advance a runner; it puts the ball in play unnecessarily, it distracts the pitcher, it excites the crowd and in rare cases can even lead to two bases gained on an overthrow or misplay.

Sports is at least in part about watching athletes take risks and that’s where the excitement comes from for the fans. Because sabermetrics is about playing risk averse baseball and following the formula consistently and without question to produce more desirable outcomes.

Risk averse is boring.

>
It's also a bad conclusion because the situational decisions are being ignored. There are times when a stolen base attempt also can keep you out of a double play or get your team a run it needs to get back into a game.

The analytics guys have gone overboard, The other day I saw two singles that were 22 "hoppers" go through the SS and then the 2B spots because managers put the shift on against everybody, even with men on base.

Why do you think no one learns how to bunt? Not deemed a necessary skill to learn. Until you need to advance a runner in a crucial situation.

Ted Williams used to have an expression; "Baseballic Intelligence", we need a little more of that and a little less analytics, but what we need most of all is "fanaylitics" some consideration given to the fact that people want to be entertained!

PaulMaul · August 10, 2021 7:40AM

It’s a good point that the ultimate purpose of sports is not to win games, but to entertain fans. Like the neutral zone trap in hockey. Effective, but not viewer friendly.

JRR300 · August 10, 2021 11:14AM

Not worth the risk for a stolen base. Is it better to let a guy stand on first, waiting for the extra base hit to score him? You would have to think the odds are much more in your favor to get one hit to score him from second than two hits or one extra base hit to score him from first. The analytics people have lost sight of the fact that it's okay to just score one run in an inning, you don't always need to put up a "crooked number" to win ball games.
Now as we approach the playoffs and every game becomes meaningful, you can't tell me that you wouldn't rather have a run up on the board than be waiting for the hit that may or may not come.

The current state of MLB

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