Home U.S. Coin Forum

Is this Seated Dollar real or fake?

2

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,485 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Valuation of collectibles is in the eye of the beholder. Some collectors really want to own a Seated Dollar but have been priced out of the market for anything decent. As a result they are willing to pay an amount that is within their budget for a seriously inferior specimen of the coin. This is what supports the retail price of $75-100. When it comes time to sell such a coin will the seller be able to find a buyer who will pay that amount or more? On-line sales outlets have made it more possible to find such buyers so maybe the $75-100 valuation is realistic.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2021 9:45AM

    It appears to be a necklace coin possibly worn by say a saloon girl around the 1870’s when a dollar was a lot of money, or somebody where it was their birth year. I have a fake 1oz AGE on money clip (cost me about $15-$20). In semi darkness of club with its flashy gold brilliance it shines like a 1st magnitude star. Waitresses, drive thru girls, dancers (Ritz) notice it right away especially if holding a wad of Bens as it’s flashy.

    As far as the 1871 being authentic will leave to the experts. For a necklace or money clip coin $75 no biggie expense about 3 lap dances and a drink at Ritz Htwn. I doubt that would go very far for a pro FB game. I think you may have a hard time retailing it on bourse for $100 or $150. If detailed for gta online as necklace coin it would easily go for $50,000 Rockstar in game money one could use as jewelry on custom outfits, clothing.

    Coins & Currency
  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    I added some more detailed photos to the original post of the obverse, reverse, date area, rim and hole to hopefully help anybody here who might be an expert on these help me with authenticating.

    A few things to note:

    • It is not magnetic
    • There appears to be some kind of sticker residue or something on both sides that can only be seen at a certain angle (see last photo)
  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My guess is genuine.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,227 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After going back and forth with some photos in auction archives, I don't like the look of some of the rev lettering, mainly serifs and open spaces inside letters (like the S's); and the 71 in the date doesn't look right to me either. The small areas of edge reeding that don't appear damaged don't look right to me either. Others may think differently. thanks for the extra photos.

  • clarkbar04clarkbar04 Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 8, 2021 9:37AM

    Still looks off to me.
    Would drilling a hole completely obliterate the lettering here? No.
    It looks like there wasn’t enough metal here to fill the cast, and some devices just didn’t fill in. Rather than cull it out someone drilled a hole in it and came up with a good story.
    The N in the op looks like it’s about to tip over!
    Denticles also appear to be attached to the rim in the op example.
    Just my 2 cents..

    MS66 taste on an MS63 budget.
  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @GoldenEgg said:
    ...do a ring test to see if it sound’s accurate.

    Have to agree with this as a modern fake is less likely to be silver.

    I have a VF 1871 Seated Dollar with a similar sized hole near 2 o'clock and just tried the ring test.

    Always thought a hole might alter the ring too much to tell if silver. (Maybe plugged silver would.) But was suprised to find it sounded the same as a problem free Morgan dollar.

    Balanced them on my fingertip and tapped the edge with the metal part of a pencil near the eraser and it rang true, same as the Morgan. Don't know if rim bumps could alter the sound or not. If it rings the same as a known silver dollar then it is almost certainly genuine silver.

    (Be careful 'cause ya wouldn't want to damage it :p )

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,479 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not like it as authentic - the scrape near the date and reeds do not look like something you can do with struck silver.

    I do like it on a keychain

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    Did you try the ring test I described above?

    Weighing it may also give some clues.

    May be a bit too early to draw a final conclusion without those.

    There have been a couple of knowledgeable people post that they think it is real.

    As it stands, I lean towards it being real pending further info.

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • skier07skier07 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    Sometimes it’s very difficult to tell if a coin is fake even if you have the coin in hand. This is slightly off topic but I had a raw 1909-S VDB that I took to a major coin show. Three specialist dealers were nice enough to look at it and give me their opinion. One said fake, another said details, and the final one said it was real. The coin currently resides in a PCGS/CAC holder.

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears to have been in a fire- or at least close to one and then scrubbed clean afterward. The hole is of the time and not recently created. It is genuine and worth $75. even as a cull.

    peacockcoins

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    It appears to have been in a fire- or at least close to one and then scrubbed clean afterward. The hole is of the time and not recently created. It is genuine and worth $75. even as a cull.

    I had thought the same about the hole. What makes you say fire? Just curious. The holder it came in said it was found while plowing in 1949

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @WinLoseWin said:

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    Did you try the ring test I described above?

    Weighing it may also give some clues.

    May be a bit too early to draw a final conclusion without those.

    There have been a couple of knowledgeable people post that they think it is real.

    As it stands, I lean towards it being real pending further info.

    I will try the ring test when I can. How accurate is that? It is not magnetic at all.

    Unfortunately I don’t have a jewelry scale so I’m unable to accurately weigh it

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,087 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:

    @braddick said:
    It appears to have been in a fire- or at least close to one and then scrubbed clean afterward. The hole is of the time and not recently created. It is genuine and worth $75. even as a cull.

    I had thought the same about the hole. What makes you say fire? Just curious. The holder it came in said it was found while plowing in 1949

    Even if the coin “was found while plowing in 1949”, there was such a thing as fire, long before then.😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @comma said:

    @braddick said:
    It appears to have been in a fire- or at least close to one and then scrubbed clean afterward. The hole is of the time and not recently created. It is genuine and worth $75. even as a cull.

    I had thought the same about the hole. What makes you say fire? Just curious. The holder it came in said it was found while plowing in 1949

    Even if the coin “was found while plowing in 1949”, there was such a thing as fire, long before then.😉

    There wasn't any info given on why it looks like it was in a fire, so I was just curious if it being buried could have the same effect

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My first impression was fake, but I'll defer to the consensus.

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:
    My first impression was fake, but I'll defer to the consensus.

    Why do you say fake? Just trying to learn as much as possible

  • WinLoseWinWinLoseWin Posts: 1,617 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:

    @WinLoseWin said:

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    Did you try the ring test I described above?

    Weighing it may also give some clues.

    May be a bit too early to draw a final conclusion without those.

    There have been a couple of knowledgeable people post that they think it is real.

    As it stands, I lean towards it being real pending further info.

    I will try the ring test when I can. How accurate is that? It is not magnetic at all.

    Unfortunately I don’t have a jewelry scale so I’m unable to accurately weigh it

    If the sound matches the ring of a known silver dollar, then it is unlikely to be a fake.

    Other metals often used in fakes will have a different ring or no ring at all and just a clunk. Many of the metals used in fakes are not magnetic either.

    A key point is to have as little of the coin in contact with anything else when giving it a tap so it has a chance to ring longer.

    That is why I balanced it on my pinkie fingertip first. First I alterrnated them and then balanced two dollars on two different fingers to see how well they matched while ringing at the same time just to see how well it worked. My holed coin was an exact match to the unholed coin.

    There are probably other ways to do it. It could be inconclusive if you aren't certain. But a match means it is almost certainly the real thing.

    .
    .
    There was a somewhat relevant article on CoinWeek August 2, 2021.

    Rings Versus Clicks - Why You Should Listen To Your Coins

    https://coinweek.com/us-coins/silver-coins/rings-versus-clicks-why-you-should-listen-to-your-coins/

    "To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,982 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure exactly how it will be affected, but the bends will effect a ring.

    I'd guess it'd be close or indistinguishable though.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:

    @CoinJunkie said:
    My first impression was fake, but I'll defer to the consensus.

    Why do you say fake? Just trying to learn as much as possible

    Probably because the surfaces have a similar texture to a cast counterfeit, but that's likely just a result of all the abuse it's endured.

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    It is NOT a fake.
    Just a heavily damaged genuine coin.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,394 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @comma said:

    @kaz said:
    It's actually a Seated Liberty Dollar, as opposed to a Trade Dollar which has a different design and was first issued in 1873.
    That being said, the obverse showing so much less detail than the reverse makes me lean towards "fake" but there is a lot of damage going on too.

    Thanks, that was a typo on the trade dollar.

    You can click the gear icon to edit and correct the thread title.

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good key chain coin. Hole was not drilled, it was punched on the obverse with an extruded wire cut nail of the time. The guy was not too skilled with a hammer though, with some miss hits.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2021 7:18AM

    @WinLoseWin said:

    @GoldenEgg said:
    ...do a ring test to see if it sound’s accurate.

    Balanced them on my fingertip and tapped the edge with the metal part of a pencil near the eraser and it rang true, same as the Morgan. Don't know if rim bumps could alter the sound or not. If it rings the same as a known silver dollar then it is almost certainly genuine silver.

    (Be careful 'cause ya wouldn't want to damage it :p )

    Just tried this and the Seated Dollar rings true (a very pronounced almost bell-like ring) and sounds the same as Morgans I have that I know are real

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2021 1:46PM

    @dcarr said:

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    It is NOT a fake.
    Just a heavily damaged genuine coin.

    Appreciate the feedback! What makes you confident it's real? Just concerned about other comments in this thread on the hole, edge reeding, reverse lettering serifs, the "N" and possible clues to sand-casting (near the date)

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2021 1:46PM

    Update: I have some replica coins (not silver) I got years ago at a historic site or something. Tried the ring test and they all ring too, very similar to this seated dollar and other Morgan and peace dollars I have. So I'm not sure that's a good test for silver

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,982 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah they ring

    You have to know that pleasant silver sound

    Try plopping them on a hard surface (use a beater real silver dollar just in case)

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @MsMorrisine said:
    Yeah they ring

    You have to know that pleasant silver sound

    Try plopping them on a hard surface (use a beater real silver dollar just in case)

    Is there a way to tell the silver sound versus a different one? The replica coin I have sounds very similar to all of the real silver dollars I tried. But I have no idea what I'm really listening for

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2021 1:57PM

    @comma said:

    @dcarr said:

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    It is NOT a fake.
    Just a heavily damaged genuine coin.

    Appreciate the feedback! What makes you confident it's real? Just concerned about other comments in this thread on the hole, edge reeding, reverse lettering serifs, the "N" and possible clues to sand-casting (near the date)

    The area below the date (on the rim) is where a rock or something was dropped on it. Later on, that area was somewhat smoothed over by wear and polishing. The raised bulge between the date and the dentils was caused by a side impact to the edge (a classic, rather heavy, "rim bump").

    The hole is a classic crude puncture. The wear inside and around the hole indicate that the coin was suspended on a loop and worn as jewelry for a long time.

    The edge reeding looks completely normal. The one picture shows a classic edge impact from hard contact with a rock or something like that. That impact disturbed the edge reeding in that area, of course.

    Since the coin is basically "ex-jewelry", the types of impacts it suffered and the heavy polishing could easily result in some rounding and softness in all the details (including letter serifs). The "N" of ONE looks completely normal to me, for a damaged and polished coin. It is in the correct location and orientation. The lower right foot was hit and/or scraped and then smoothed over by wear and polishing. The upper right serif on the "N" was also hit which cased it to be somewhat flattened, and then it was worn and polished as well.

    The only thing to me that seems a little strange about the coin is the discontinuity in the surface, below and just to the right of Liberty's foot. I don't think it is a die crack. Most likely it is a planchet defect (a planchet crack and/or partial delamintation).

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @dcarr said:

    @comma said:

    @dcarr said:

    @comma said:
    Thanks guys, really appreciate all the help. Since it's looking like a fake I'll probably try to return it. This is why I left coin collecting for a while, it's so sad that it takes this much effort just to tell if a banged up old coin is real or not! :(

    It is NOT a fake.
    Just a heavily damaged genuine coin.

    Appreciate the feedback! What makes you confident it's real? Just concerned about other comments in this thread on the hole, edge reeding, reverse lettering serifs, the "N" and possible clues to sand-casting (near the date)

    The area below the date (on the rim) is where a rock or something was dropped on it. Later on, that area was somewhat smoothed over by wear and polishing. The raised bulge between the date and the dentils was caused by a side impact to the edge (a classic, rather heavy, "rim bump").

    The hole is a classic crude puncture. The wear inside and around the hole indicate that the coin was suspended on a loop and worn as jewelry for a long time.

    The edge reeding looks completely normal. The one picture shows a classic edge impact from hard contact with a rock or something like that. That impact disturbed the edge reeding in that area, of course.

    Since the coin is basically "ex-jewelry", the types of impacts it suffered and the heavy polishing could easily result in some rounding and softness in all the details (including letter serifs). The "N" of ONE looks completely normal to me, for a damaged and polished coin. It is in the correct location and orientation. The lower right foot was hit and/or scraped and then smoothed over by wear and polishing. The upper right serif on the "N" was also hit which cased it to be somewhat flattened, and then it was worn and polished as well.

    The only thing to me that seems a little strange about the coin is the discontinuity in the surface, below and just to the right of Liberty's foot. I don't think it is a die crack. Most likely it is a planchet defect (a planchet crack and/or partial delamintation).

    Thank you so much! I really appreciate such a detailed response. Very happy to hear the coin is authentic and I’m learning a lot too which is what I was hoping to get out of this post. Thanks again @dcarr

  • markelman1125markelman1125 Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It’s real beat up, that’s what I can tell for sure

  • tincuptincup Posts: 5,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like it suits your purpose comma! Look at all the interest and discussion the coin has generated... certainly will make a good conversation piece!

    FWIW... I also say genuine.

    ----- kj
  • I get the op’s sentiment. I have this battered silver quarter inherited from my father. It’s on my keychain…there’s just something appealing to me about having this genuine survivor —no matter how beat up—always with me. I certainly don’t have to worry about damaging it accidentally.

    "A happy person is not a person in a certain set of circumstances, but rather a person with a certain set of attitudes"--Hugh Downs
  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭
    edited August 9, 2021 5:49PM

    @windwhispersintrees said:
    I get the op’s sentiment. I have this battered silver quarter inherited from my father. It’s on my keychain…there’s just something appealing to me about having this genuine survivor —no matter how beat up—always with me. I certainly don’t have to worry about damaging it accidentally.

    Awesome! I love coins with a story

  • element159element159 Posts: 530 ✭✭✭

    Assuming it is genuine: I don't know enough to tell, but from the comments here I think it probably is real. I like it!
    I would also like some link to anywhere I can buy a seated dollar like this for close to melt. The coin is obviously impaired, in several ways, but not really that make it ugly. I'd more call it: experienced... Sure, maybe you can only sell it for half what you paid, but in the meantime you have a seated dollar with some character (including character flaws!)

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @element159 said:
    Assuming it is genuine: I don't know enough to tell, but from the comments here I think it probably is real. I like it!
    I would also like some link to anywhere I can buy a seated dollar like this for close to melt. The coin is obviously impaired, in several ways, but not really that make it ugly. I'd more call it: experienced... Sure, maybe you can only sell it for half what you paid, but in the meantime you have a seated dollar with some character (including character flaws!)

    Yeah, these are the coins I honestly like the most. Appears to be the real deal and I’ll be happy to wear it or carry it on my keys. This thing went through a lot over the years!

    Still waiting for the guys that originally said you can buy these for melt to show me where haha

  • KoveKove Posts: 2,038 ✭✭✭✭

    There were some comments about the date somehow being "off" on this coin. However, the date looks exactly like the dates on the Coinfacts coins, so nothing to worry about there. I also believe the coin is genuine.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 4,216 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Likely genuine and for $50 what the heck.

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @Kove said:
    There were some comments about the date somehow being "off" on this coin. However, the date looks exactly like the dates on the Coinfacts coins, so nothing to worry about there. I also believe the coin is genuine.

    I couldn't seem to find the issues with the date they were mentioning either. Maybe they'll respond with a little more explanation. Just trying to learn as much as I can so I know what to look for moving forward with these

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be careful spinning this one to check the "silver ring" sound! You don't want to accidentally damage it.

    peacockcoins

  • commacomma Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    Be careful spinning this one to check the "silver ring" sound! You don't want to accidentally damage it.

    haha!

  • telephoto1telephoto1 Posts: 4,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's real, but really ugly. If you're going to put it on a key ring, who cares anyway? Have fun with it because last time I checked, that's what collecting's about.


    RIP Mom- 1932-2012
  • Russell12Russell12 Posts: 289 ✭✭✭✭

    Buy a cheap slabbed coin and crack it open.

  • AercusAercus Posts: 381 ✭✭✭✭

    @Eldorado9 said:
    Wow, 1.2k views on this post! Guess I need to stop posting stuff like Eliasberg pedigree coins, and 19th century cameo toned proof delicacies....I'll get better readership with holed, cleaned, and run over by truck coins. :#

    The quality and authenticity of your pieces is not controversial. Please keep posting them though, I always enjoy your coins!

    Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    100!
    (On my bucket list of what I've always wanted to do!)

    peacockcoins

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file