Petition to Unban illegal coins!
CalifornianKing
Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭
I wrote a petition to the Treasury department and the President, on the suggestion of @Zoins
I got the idea last night, but decied to pull the trigger today. Come sign it and hopefully the government will do the right thing and make the Lanbord's whole again... and everyone else they robbed.
http://chng.it/z9V426GVtK
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Comments
I'm sure such a petition will go right to the top of the President's pile of actions needing to be taken.
Most definatly! Should shoot straight to the top! But in all seriousness, we might be able to garner some attention and this might work..
Chance of it working 1,000,000,000,000 :1
Could you provide the evidence that those coins were legally obtained?
The fact is that while they didn't steal them, they did acquire them through the back door of the Mint. While probably done in good faith and while it was common in the day, those coins were never officially released.
I'd be more in favor of a petition to demonetize the one that was monetized. I've never quite understood how two wrongs make a right on that one.
This is America. They need to prove that they were obtained illegally, not vice versa.
They did. In court. Numerous times. Including with the Langbord's.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/precious-metals/langboard-family-loses-appeal-1933-double-eagle-case.html
So, upon appeal of the appeal, the burden of proof is on you.
If the coins were obtained, or produced illegally?
Request to sign petition, reviewed, considered....denied!
By the way, aren't you trying to reclassify illegal coins as legal, not "unban illegal coins"?
I don't want it to work. I never supported the Langbord's position.
I never even supported the Farouk coin position. It made no sense to me that erroneously issuing an export license somehow monetized a coin that had never been monetized. That's like saying that if the State of NY accidentally issued me a marriage license rather than an adoption certificate that I would have a 3 year old wife!
no thanks i'll go after something rooted in the real world not in ones mind
Aug 11th
That is true. But if the goverment passes a law legalizing it, it then negates everything.
Your denial has been denied. I will appeal it!
I do. I want the 1933 double eagle to become easier to collect. 35 or so examples will make it much more affordable than 1 example.
You're moving the goal post. You are the one who brought up the idea of proving things legally.
What possibly motivation would the government have to change the status of the coins? If you think the government should pass a law legalizing the coins [new goalpost], then you are acknowledging that their current status is stolen coins. Why would the government have any interest in rewarding the heirs of people who knowingly possessed stolen coins for 70+ years?
pass
i'll find something in the real world that has some real world use and support that not some shot in the dark idea that has no chance of success
Aug 11th
There is a little of Don Quixote in all of us.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
True. And this also appeals to the treasure hunter in us.
True.
Ironically, and apropos that, Terry Gilliam tried for 29 years to make his awesome flic "The Man Who Killed Don Quixote"
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso
I do not belive that they were stolen. Period. They could have easily been obtained legally from the cashier at the mint in exchange for a double eagle or any form of legal tender during the 3 week period. Plus the head of the treasury department William Woodin was a numismatist. hmmm...
As far as "stolen" is concerned, I am not aware that anyone has claimed that in court. (But I could be wrong).
i suspect that the most that was done was that they were swapped out. One pre-1933 SG for one 1933 SG. The net result is that the number in circulation remained constant. You might say that the pre-1933 SG became the unissued coin and the 1933 SG took its place in the "issued" column on the ledger.
It would be awesome to see a 64-d peace dollar surface.
I don’t recall whether it was specifically claimed in court that the coins were “stolen”. But I did just find the following through a quick web search: “These Double Eagles were never lawfully issued, but instead, were taken from the … Mint … in an unlawful manner more than 70 years ago,” said Acting Mint Director David Lebryk in a 2005 press release.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A quick google search will also show that they were "legal" for a period of about 3 weeks between the 15th of March and the 5th of April.. Hence they could have easily been obtained from the Cashier at the mint, or by asking to exchange a equal value of tender. QDB says that in his book, he also strongly hints that William Woodin was the source for some of the coins. Personally I would love to see them unbanned and legalized, but that is highly unlikely. If for some insane reason I become President, I will pull a reverse FDR and unban them.
All sorts of things are being legalized these days. Whatever the original circumstances, I personally would enjoy seeing legislation that would make certain coins legal to privately own. Maybe because I’d have a better chance at actually seeing one in my lifetime. I don’t know how easy/hard/impossible it is to see the national collection outside of giant display cases that won’t let you hold the coins even in their pseudo NGC holders.
The federal court made their decision during the Langbord trial. Whoever posessed these coins all those years, must certainly have known they were illegal to possess. Case closed!
To be fair, if the Langbord family knew that the coins were illegal to possess, they probably would have chosen a different course of action. Sure, they probably wondered and/or wanted to find out, but I think it’s unfair to accuse them of knowing something they couldn’t have known.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
this has been a hot-button topic from the beginning and I always felt that the Court Decision was the correct one, that the coins belonged to Our Uncle.
aside to Mark: growing up, I heard my Father say the following numerous times --- Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.
I'm sure they were swapped out ILLEGALLY. They were never officially released.
Now that the government has possession of the coins, what should they do with them? Melt them down? Put them in the Smithsonian? legalize them and auction them off? or just hold them forever? The only way to permanently end this controversy is to melt them down as they would have in 1933. Personally, I would hope for legalization. But, it has no effect on me, as I or 99% of the people here, cannot afford one.
Maybe they slipped out the same way the Sac/quarter mules did, or Martha Washington test pieces, etc.
The problem is that the feds took such a hard position for so long that it would be impossible to change the rules now.
No accusation made. I said whoever possessed them. No idea who that may be. I said “must have known”, not “did know”. Just making the point, since I believe I was aware that it was illegal to own these coins for at least 40 years. As I said, the court has decided. How many times does the courts have to revisit these same issues.
I agree with MFeld, if they knew they were illegal, they most likely would not have sent them to the freaking mint. I am sure that those remaining 12 or so "missing" ones are closely held. Maybe one or two is in private collections secretly, and a few are lying forgotten somewhere in a safe or a Safety deposit box.
It would be possible. Look at the laws regarding weed.... What happened with the sac/quarter mules and martha washington test pieces. And no one can prove that they were obtained illegally, its basically the government saying "oh these records that only we have access to say bla bla bla". Also the government can effectively pass a law saying that all the coins are legal, and return any coins that exist either fully or partially to their owners, and either tell the families of the destroyed coins "tough luck" or compensate them.
I mean if they were legalized, the price would probably drop down to the range of the 1933 eagle, I personally cannot afford one currently, but in the future I may be able to afford one. $100k for a coin is not a insanely high number.
The courts would reconsider if the law changed.
The families can't prove they even legally possessed the coins. Even a change in law doesn't prove they were legally acquired. You might go to law school before you keep throwing out legal opinions.
True story: I have a bunch of probably stolen coins here that I legally possess. Why? Because when the thief was arrested, even though the thief was charged with stealing coins LIKE this, the original owner could only legally take possession of the coins that he could prove legal title to.
Unless the Langbord's have receipts (they don't), even if 1933 DEs were made "legal", they and all the other owners other than Farouk can't prove legal right to possess.
As for why the Langbord's went to the Mint, it is not because they were unaware of the status of the coins. The only way they could legally sell them was to get the Mint to authenticate them. I imagine (supposition) they were hoping for a deal similar to the Farouk coin where they got to split the proceeds with the Mint. Why do you think their Dad (?) never took them out of the safety deposit box and the family didn't pull them out until after the Farouk coin was made legal to sell?
And so, unless your name is Langbord, I don't know why you are trying to waste the time of the government to enrich them by turning a blind eye to a 90 year old crime.
The courts have spoken and revisiting this is a waste of time and effort.
Yolo
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/date-sets/hashtags-prefect-coin-grading-service-1879/album/7621
You have to present it as an opportunity to raise money for the gov't to spend, fund raiser for the Dem's, etc, for it to have a chance. Good luck!
I haven’t seen any proof that a “crime” was committed.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think it is a "technical" crime: releasing coins from the back door of the Mint prior to authorization. If, as it is usually phrased, "the coins illegally left the Mint", doesn't it have to be a crime?
I am of the opinion they should be legal. Neither side of this case is able to prove their case without doubts. Therefore the innocent until proven guilty should have judged the outcome of this legal ruling.
No proof they went out the back. They could have come from the cashier.
Thats what I've been saying!
What was the crime? Releasing unauthorized coins though an exchange? I haven’t heard of such. And if there was a crime, why weren’t their any charges filed?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lots of coins have gotten out of the mint suspiciously that the mint doesn't seem to care about. Why are these coins different? Someone in the government got a bug up their butt about them and made a fuss. The easiest policy the government can follow now is to continue to say what they've been saying about them since then. There's no career benefit in rocking the boat.
Insignificant monies to the Feds.
That wouldn't even pay for a couple miles of Elon Musks tunnel to Vegas.
It's the principal of the matter, anyway they aren't giving in and they have unlimited legal funding.
If the coins are illegal ... they should be destroyed.
Why?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.