Pedigree Premium?
keoj
Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭
This is just a curiosity question.....no real real situation in mind.
Is there a tangible $$ premium for a coin pedigree? Would a coin transact higher with a Share, Eliasberg, Pogue, or other on the holder? My off the cuff response is no (but that is just me). However, it is extremely cool to know that it once resided in a premier collection. Interested on others opinions. Thanks,
keoj
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In some instances, depending upon the provenance and the bidders/potential buyers, yes. But there’s certainly no rule of thumb that can be applied.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
First and foremost for me is...”do I like the coin”...second is “what do I feel is a fair price, or the price I am willing to pay”...if a coin is offered that meets both of those, then depending on my mood, if it has a pedigree I like, I may stretch a little for it. Not always, but sometimes.
I generally never pay a premium for provenance but I appreciate tracking it.
Here's an exception. I paid like a $100 pedigree premium for the Eric Newman piece.
The one on the left is a pop 1/0, but I couldn’t resist adding a EPN provenance piece to the collection as well.
I agree with "SIMPLE COLLECTOR" and my logic is to lean to a possible yes
... These famous names and including contemporary collectors like Hanson, Simpson et al , spent years and had several representatives out in the market searching and buying for what I trust would be premium looking coins. So in my thinking, if I like the coin I might lean to a small (not large) premium for a Pedigree name assigned ( with or without a CAC added).
OMG ... My Mother was Right about Everything!
I wake up with a Good Attitude Every Day. Then … Idiots Happen!
I think a prominent provenance deserves a bump in price.
I'd almost buy every Steve Tanenbaum piece of exonumia sight unseen. He out the best of the best in his collection, and it took years if not decades.
Zabriskie, Ford, Bowers, Newman. If it was good enough for them, I'll pay a premium to have it in my own collection
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I think one issue with the Tanenbaum provenance is that it’s very hard to track. A lot of them got slabbed with the QDB Reference Collection provenance but I’m not sure how to tell which ones are from Tanenbaum.
Even the QDB provenance can be a bit hard to track. When they show up without slab photos it’s hard to know if it’s a Reference Collection piece or not.
Those are great names and they are in my collection too but I usually buy at auction so if there is a premium, someone else is making me pay it
I personally think they do get a premium. I would pay a premium since I like the history behind it.
Great provenance on a cheap coin adds value. Great provenance on an expensive coin adds liquidity. Somewhere, there’s a grey area in the middle where maybe you get a bit of both.
I’m not into pedigrees and I wouldn’t pay any premiums but that’s just me.
It adds value for those who get starry eyed over that stuff.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I might pay a bid increment (or two) for a nice pedigree ON THE LABEL, but not more. But there’s no doubt, others will pay more. Here’s a real life example, where both coins are lovely:
Both of these True Views are graded MS65+RD, and are the highest graded 1870 Two Cent pieces with CAC’s. There are no others in this grade. (There is one graded MS66RD, and one other graded MS66+RD, but neither of those two merit a CAC. At this price point, I’d be shocked if either of those two in a higher grade were not submitted to CAC.)
Of these below two TrueViews graded MS65+RD with CAC’s, one is owned by me, and the other one was owned by Simpson, but was only graded MS65RD, without a plus. Shortly before appearing in auction, it was submitted back to PCGS, but this time came away graded MS65+RD. I don’t disagree with the new grade.
In the auction with the MS65+RD that had Simpson’s name on the label, it just sold for $3,425 more than I paid for mine, which I bought in auction only last August. Here they are. Both are lovely, but I like the eye appeal of mine better. But I agree beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’ll let you decide which is whose, but basic research will quickly reveal the answer. To the OP, it appears the new owner paid a premium for a terrific pedigree.
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/39591997_Medium.jpg
https://images.pcgs.com/TrueView/40276852_Large.jpg
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I really enjoy owning coins with older pedigrees- Atwater, Brand, Garrett, Norweb, Eliasberg, Earle, Clapp, Pittman, and Dunham among others. I like to imagine Virgil Brand examining my coin in his office next to the brewery and then tucking it away in a cigar box.
On the other hand, the nouveau, post-1980-ish pedigrees I couldn’t care less about, and some are so ubiquitous as to be down right annoying (not naming names or anything).
Would I or do I pay more? Not deliberately, but since I buy a lot of my collection via online auction I guess a good pedigree makes me more confident in bidding a little higher, so I guess- long story short- I do subconsciously choose to pay more for a coin with a quality pedigree.
Depends on the pedigree. For example, while I have no interest at all in the "big names" such as Eliasberg or Brand I will definitely pay up for coins from collections which are famous in the particular series, such as Overton or Logan.
I own no dogs or horses nor will I. 😉
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Yes / depending on demand and popularity.
I bump them up some (pricing) but mileage can vary.
Like a WR who is slippery / evasive. May not be a Mr Reliable or Aerial Threat (speedster) but definitely somebody want on roster.
From a theory of economics viewpoint, the pedigree must add at least a small incremental value, at least if you assume that no one wants to pay less due to the pedigree. If some even small fraction of collectors will pay more, the demand side of the supply/demand curve will increase, leading to an increase in price.
While I'll pay a bit more for a D.L. Hansen pedigree showing on a label (and others will too), in a prior thread on this forum it was made VERY clear that there are some on this forum that won't even bid on coin if the label has his pedigree, and others will bid, but less than they otherwise would in order to cover the costs of reholdering if they end up as the high bidder!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@winesteven: that’s interesting! So we can’t generalize to the level in of pedigree-we need to be more specific! Personally, Eliasberg is the only pedigree I would pay for, and then only a small increment.
(Though I wouldn’t pay less for any particular pedigree, in fact if given the choice of a coin with or without a pedigree, I’d generally go without, so my own inclinations support your point above!)
generally, my answer is no. The premium associated with such names should be due to the quality of the coin.
I was able to pick up some coins from the Bowers & Merena Reference Collection. QDB always preached buying MS4s as the best value, and that is what they are. I didn't pay a premium for them, but they will have one to the right person.
It's not just the provenance but the auction as well.
A lot of the time it's the marketing and excitement around a big name auction will drive prices across the board. Many pieces with the same provenance, slab insert, etc. will sell for much less later outside of the big name auction.
Here are the cert links:
I’m personally working on a set of proof Liberty Seated coinage with colorful toning. As part of this set, I’m wanting a coin from all of the major collections. Atwater, Tiech, Simpson, Eliasberg, Norweb, Newman, Green, etc. I think it would be really neat to have a complete set with colorful proof pieces from all of these historical collections pulled together. Will I pay more for a pedigree? Yes. But what I really am after is the eye appeal of the coin and the colorful toning. I want coins that look like they belong together.
I appreciate certain pedigrees, but most are meaningless. I have never really paid a premium for one. However under certain circumstances I imagine that I would pay a premium and receive a premium for one. But I believe it would be few and far between and would probably be under extraordinary circumstances.
I have found that most dealers do not spend time researching such and therein lies the problem to a certain extent..