Consensus High grade Gobrecht Dollars ... are they undervalued?

bidask · February 4, 2021 7:37PM

I think they are.

I say that based on what other numismatic coins in that price range are selling for yet Gobrechts are far more rare , just my opinion.

The Gobrecht dollar has ALWAYS been a dream coin of mine since I was a child coin collector 😊

I don’t collect US coins any longer as I have migrated to the darkside full time 5 years ago.

Yet I always wanted a high grade Gobrecht dollar the most beautiful US coin ever struck ! 🤓

abcde12345 · February 4, 2021 7:55PM

Did Daniel Carr mint one of these? If not, it might be a neat future project.

koynekwest · February 4, 2021 8:20PM

I tend to agree with you about the beauty of the issue, especially this one. I, too, would love to have one but I just can't afford a champagne coin on a beer budget.

bidask · February 4, 2021 8:22PM

@koynekwest said:
I tend to agree with you about the beauty of the issue, especially this one. I, too, would love to have one but I just can't afford a champagne coin on a beer budget.

Yes that is my favorite variety......eagle ascending .

Raybo · February 4, 2021 8:31PM

I'm a huge fan of the no stars.

tradedollarnut · February 4, 2021 8:56PM

My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Pnies20 · February 4, 2021 9:20PM

One of my goals to own one. Awesome coin.

bidask · February 4, 2021 9:20PM

@tradedollarnut said:
My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Quite amazing you have done 2 sets !

Edit to say: they have a interesting history as to their being struck .

koynekwest · February 4, 2021 9:31PM

Two sets! That's quite an accomplishment.

HashTag · February 4, 2021 9:49PM

NLI

savitale · February 4, 2021 10:06PM

A Gobrecht Dollar is on my dream coin list too. I'm not sure they are undervalued. I would say they are under appreciated though. Their issuance history is complex, the reverse design was not adopted, and all examples seem to be considered proofs. So I think they fall into the pattern bucket instead of the regular issue bucket for most folks, and it's kind of off their radar.

trueblood · February 4, 2021 10:07PM

@tradedollarnut said:
My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Excuse me , were you there when they were minted? How can you be certain? I don't see many around. I too agree that they could very well have been minted for circulation but its my guess and not based on facts. I would appreciate your full explanation since they are such a great piece of our nation's history.

MrEureka · February 4, 2021 10:42PM

@trueblood said:

@tradedollarnut said:
My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Excuse me , were you there when they were minted? How can you be certain? I don't see many around. I too agree that they could very well have been minted for circulation but its my guess and not based on facts. I would appreciate your full explanation since they are such a great piece of our nation's history.

There has been a lot of research done on these and there is little doubt that many were struck to circulate. If you want to read more, this should keep you busy for a while.

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/gobdol.html

chesterb · February 5, 2021 2:12AM

@trueblood said:

@tradedollarnut said:
My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Excuse me , were you there when they were minted? How can you be certain? I don't see many around. I too agree that they could very well have been minted for circulation but its my guess and not based on facts. I would appreciate your full explanation since they are such a great piece of our nation's history.

LOL, He said “many think” and it’s a coin that has been studied extensively on whether it was a pattern vs. circulating coin.

Zoins · February 5, 2021 2:17AM

@abcde12345 said:
Did Daniel Carr mint one of these? If not, it might be a neat future project.

Dan would need to overstrike an original. Anyone have an original to contribute?

The Intaglio Mint editions have sold out:

Zoins · February 5, 2021 2:22AM

@MrEureka said:

@trueblood said:

@tradedollarnut said:
My favorite design. I’ve done two sets of them. Unfortunately many think they are patterns and not rare regular issue dollars. Amazing coins

Excuse me , were you there when they were minted? How can you be certain? I don't see many around. I too agree that they could very well have been minted for circulation but its my guess and not based on facts. I would appreciate your full explanation since they are such a great piece of our nation's history.

There has been a lot of research done on these and there is little doubt that many were struck to circulate. If you want to read more, this should keep you busy for a while.

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/gobdol.html

I love these coins, but at the same time I'm not a big researcher of these.

When I read the following page for Judd-60 / Pollock-65 about the competing theories, my thinking is experts still assign it a Judd Number, so it's a pattern. If this is no longer a pattern, I think the Judd and Pollock numbers should be delisted and uspatterns.com should be updated to reflect the delisting.

uspatterns.com

J60/P65

The 1836 Gobrecht dollar with C. GOBRECHT F. incuse on base. Although listed as a pattern in all major reference works, these were deliberately released into circulation for commercial use and thus should not be considered patterns. In fact, Snowden in his 1860 "A Description of Ancient and Modern Coins" lists the 1836s with the regular issues.

There is much controversy surrounding the striking of these pieces which has resulted in 2 competing theories

https://uspatterns.stores.yahoo.net/j60.html

Zoins · February 5, 2021 2:30AM

@bidask said:
Consensus High grade Gobrecht Dollars ... are they undervalued?

These are beautiful coins but US coins are a very mature market.

It's hard to find undervalued coins in a mature market.

I think one's more likely to get a "good deal" in a down or weak market, but that's different than being undervalued.

Crypto · February 5, 2021 5:00AM

@Zoins said:

@bidask said:
Consensus High grade Gobrecht Dollars ... are they undervalued?

These are beautiful coins but US coins are a very mature market.

It's hard to find undervalued coins in a mature market.

I think one's more likely to get a "good deal" in a down or weak market, but that's different than being undervalued.

This is very true. There are no under American valued coins because the dealer network is so large. There are only niches and types not yet promoted. No one can say Gobrecht Dollars aren’t highly promoted

Crypto · February 5, 2021 5:03AM

@abcde12345 said:
Did Daniel Carr mint one of these? If not, it might be a neat future project.

He did gold and silver Gobrecht Dollars tributes for the LSCC about 10 years back in both UNC and Proof. You had to submit a 20$ DE for the gold versions

bidask · February 5, 2021 6:12AM

I purchased this coin and paid a world record I think: PCGS Proof 64 CAC

291fifth · February 5, 2021 6:27AM

The US coin market is both very large and very mature. In such a market "undervaluation" is highly unlikely.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 6:45AM

@291fifth said:
The US coin market is both very large and very mature. In such a market "undervaluation" is highly unlikely.

And yet I was offered the 1804$10 proof in 2001 or so for around $600k. A few years later it was trading in the $5M range.

It does happen.

Zoins · February 5, 2021 6:48AM

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
The US coin market is both very large and very mature. In such a market "undervaluation" is highly unlikely.

And yet I was offered the 1804$10 proof in 2001 or so for around $600k. A few years later it was trading in the $5M range.

It does happen.

Scott Rudolph reportedly purchased the coin for $5M in 2007.

Why do you think the price jumped so much in that 6 year span? I can see a big jump if there was a discovery of something previously unknown, such as if the Sayyid Sa'id-bin-Sultan provenance theory was first postulated at that time.

It is interesting that the price hasn't changed much from 2007 to 2021 when it was recently sold for $5.28M.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 6:55AM

2007

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 7:52AM

Note that the official inflation rate reports make the dollar worth 25% less in 2021 vs 2007...tho I suspect it’s really more likely 1/3-1/2.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 7:54AM

I think the information was available but not widely understood. The other coins that have hugely jumped in value during that same period are the novodel proof 1801-1803 dollars

chesterb · February 5, 2021 11:08AM

I have a CAC stickered circulated J60/P65 but, then again, I am quietly assembling one of the better circulated type coin collections out there today.

MidLifeCrisis · February 5, 2021 11:24AM

Pattern or regular issue...either way they are beautiful and I want one.

IkesT · February 5, 2021 11:55AM

The pattern vs. regular issue distinction is very interesting from a historical/academic perspective. Personally, it doesn't change my appreciation of the coins one way or the other.

In the market, patterns seem to be generally much less valuable than a regular issue coin of comparable rarity. I've never understood why this is, except perhaps that collectors are just less aware of patterns, in general. They are greatly underappreciated, in my opinion.

trueblood · February 5, 2021 3:46PM

@MidLifeCrisis said:
Pattern or regular issue...either way they are beautiful and I want one.

I wholeheartedly agree. I must say it is confusing, or maybe I should say I am confused with the intent of the mint on this series

MrEureka · February 5, 2021 5:40PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
The US coin market is both very large and very mature. In such a market "undervaluation" is highly unlikely.

And yet I was offered the 1804$10 proof in 2001 or so for around $600k. A few years later it was trading in the $5M range.

It does happen.

And Harry Bass bought its equal at the 1982 Eliasberg sale for 33K. One of the reasons it brought so little in 1982 and, to some extent, why it was "only" 600K in 2001, was that most people back then thought of the coin as something of a bullshit fantasy coin. At least that was my impression when discussing it with people back then. Harry Bass probably thought otherwise, and today most of us have nothing but respect for the coin. So the story of the 1804's appreciation in price has something to do with a change in the market's perception of the coin's importance.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 5:45PM

Which means that gobrechts realistically COULD be under appreciated and under priced because not enough is understood about their circulation strike status.

Catbert · February 5, 2021 5:50PM

@bidask Love your new pattern, but how evident is the fingerprint when viewed in hand?

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 6:04PM

@Catbert said:
@bidask Love your new pattern.....

Pfffft. My point exactly....

MrEureka · February 5, 2021 6:24PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Which means that gobrechts realistically COULD be under appreciated and under priced because not enough is understood about their circulation strike status.

Yes, although not to the same extent as with the 1804 $10.

I think the bigger issue with the circulation strike Gobrechts is that people don't realize how hard it is to find solidly graded, original and problem free coins. I hardly ever see one I'd consider keeping for myself.

IkesT · February 5, 2021 6:49PM

@MrEureka said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@291fifth said:
The US coin market is both very large and very mature. In such a market "undervaluation" is highly unlikely.

And yet I was offered the 1804$10 proof in 2001 or so for around $600k. A few years later it was trading in the $5M range.

It does happen.

And Harry Bass bought its equal at the 1982 Eliasberg sale for 33K. One of the reasons it brought so little in 1982 and, to some extent, why it was "only" 600K in 2001, was that most people back then thought of the coin as something of a bullshit fantasy coin. At least that was my impression when discussing it with people back then. Harry Bass probably thought otherwise, and today most of us have nothing but respect for the coin. So the story of the 1804's appreciation in price has something to do with a change in the market's perception of the coin's importance.

It is interesting how bias persists in the market, and also how certain coins are able to break out.

divecchia · February 5, 2021 7:11PM

The Gobrecht dollar is one of my favorite coin designs. I love the seated Liberty design and think the eagle on the back soaring upwards just looks awesome!!!

Edited to add:

I too believe they are undervalued at this time.

Donato

Zoins · February 5, 2021 7:16PM

@tradedollarnut said:

@Catbert said:
@bidask Love your new pattern.....

Pfffft. My point exactly....

As mentioned above, I think it needs to lose the Judd number to be more widely recognized as a regular issue. After all, Judd numbers assigned by experts to indicate patterns, not regular issues.

tradedollarnut · February 5, 2021 7:20PM

Or presentation novodel eagles...

chesterb · February 5, 2021 8:06PM

My coin is a VG-8. It didn't get that way sitting around.

MrEureka · February 5, 2021 8:10PM

@Zoins said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@Catbert said:
@bidask Love your new pattern.....

Pfffft. My point exactly....

As mentioned above, I think it needs to lose the Judd number to be more widely recognized as a regular issue. After all, Judd numbers assigned by experts to indicate patterns, not regular issues.

I agree. If I'm ever given the chance to revise Judd, it's coming out of there. Same goes for the 1836 RE half dollar, and more than a few other things.

IkesT · February 5, 2021 8:20PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Or presentation novodel eagles...

Why take them out?

It is acknowledged that the "patterns, experimental, and trial pieces" covered by Judd and earlier authors also include fantasy and novodel pieces. They are rare varieties in their own right and ought to be attributed as such. Strictly speaking, they may not be patterns, but they've traditionally been described in the pattern literature and that is where people know to look for them.

Where it becomes very confusing is if, as a group, the U.S. novodels are currently described in a bunch of different references other than Judd. If that's the case, it would be great if someone decided to write the book on novodels.

MrEureka · February 5, 2021 8:27PM

@IkesT said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Or presentation novodel eagles...

Why take them out?

It is acknowledged that the "patterns, experimental, and trial pieces" covered by Judd and earlier authors also include fantasy and novodel pieces. They are rare varieties in their own right and ought to be attributed as such. Strictly speaking, they may not be patterns, but they've traditionally been described in the pattern literature and that is where people know to look for them.

Where it becomes very confusing is if, as a group, the U.S. novodels are currently described in a bunch of different references other than Judd. If that's the case, it would be great if someone decided to write the book on novodels.

If I had to guess, there is only one reason why the 1804 $10 Proof is listed in Judd and the 1804 $1 is not, and it is not a good reason. Before I tell you what I think, what's your best guess?

IkesT · February 5, 2021 8:33PM

@MrEureka said:

@IkesT said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Or presentation novodel eagles...

Why take them out?

It is acknowledged that the "patterns, experimental, and trial pieces" covered by Judd and earlier authors also include fantasy and novodel pieces. They are rare varieties in their own right and ought to be attributed as such. Strictly speaking, they may not be patterns, but they've traditionally been described in the pattern literature and that is where people know to look for them.

Where it becomes very confusing is if, as a group, the U.S. novodels are currently described in a bunch of different references other than Judd. If that's the case, it would be great if someone decided to write the book on novodels.

If I had to guess, there is only one reason why the 1804 $10 Proof is listed in Judd and the 1804 $1 is not, and it is not a good reason. Before I tell you what I think, what's your best guess?

I would guess that it is because there are off metal strikes of the $10.

But that also applies to a lot of other novodel varieties currently listed in Judd, which gets back to my point. Do you take all of the other novodel off metal strikes out of the book, as well? They ought to be listed somewhere, and not orphaned, as it were.

Maybe a separate novodel book is the best solution. To my earlier question, do you know of a lot of other novodels that are listed in references other than Judd that could be consolidated into such a reference?

MrEureka · February 5, 2021 8:46PM

@IkesT said:

@MrEureka said:

@IkesT said:

@tradedollarnut said:
Or presentation novodel eagles...

Why take them out?

It is acknowledged that the "patterns, experimental, and trial pieces" covered by Judd and earlier authors also include fantasy and novodel pieces. They are rare varieties in their own right and ought to be attributed as such. Strictly speaking, they may not be patterns, but they've traditionally been described in the pattern literature and that is where people know to look for them.

Where it becomes very confusing is if, as a group, the U.S. novodels are currently described in a bunch of different references other than Judd. If that's the case, it would be great if someone decided to write the book on novodels.

If I had to guess, there is only one reason why the 1804 $10 Proof is listed in Judd and the 1804 $1 is not, and it is not a good reason. Before I tell you what I think, what's your best guess?

I would guess that it is because there are off metal strikes of the $10.

But that also applies to a lot of other novodel varieties currently listed in Judd, which gets back to my point. Do you take all of the other novodel off metal strikes out of the book, as well? They ought to be listed somewhere, and not orphaned, as it were.

Maybe a separate novodel book is the best solution. To my earlier question, do you know of a lot of other novodels that are listed in references other than Judd that could be consolidated into such a reference?

My guess is the same.

Most of the novodels in Judd are mules and backdated transitionals. Even though they're not true patterns, I don't see a benefit to carving them out of the Judd book.

IkesT · February 5, 2021 9:20PM

.

TomB · February 5, 2021 9:38PM

@chesterb said:
My coin is a VG-8. It didn't get that way sitting around.

Hey! I have a PR10 with original surfaces. Do you have images of your VG8 that you might share?

OliverDePlaise · February 6, 2021 1:48AM

The 1837-38 dime makes a good budget holdover.

amwldcoin · February 6, 2021 2:37AM

As others have mentioned. I've seen quite a few well circulated Gobrecht Dollars. When compared to other patterns I've seen the only circulation is from mishandling(I'm sure there is an outlier or 2). Gobrecht's certainly circulated.

chesterb · February 6, 2021 7:09AM

@TomB said:

@chesterb said:
My coin is a VG-8. It didn't get that way sitting around.

Hey! I have a PR10 with original surfaces. Do you have images of your VG8 that you might share?

I stated VG-8 but as you pointed out the official grade was PR-8. I’ll send you a PM.

Zoins · February 6, 2021 7:16AM

Although I love these coins, I haven't picked one up yet.

I also love beautiful coins, and beautiful Gobrecht dollars tend to be pricey.

The interesting thing is that as a non-specialist, there always seem to be quite a few available at high prices which makes them seem less rare, kind of like Lesher Dollars. I would say like 1909-S VDB cents and 1916-D dimes, but there are a vareity of Gobrecht issues which clouds the issue for a non-specialist.

Here's a tribute I have. This has the notoriety of having the dies and some medals confiscated by the FBI! Love the old slab on this.

Consensus High grade Gobrecht Dollars ... are they undervalued?

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