Alan Weinberg - Recommended changes to grading practices
TurtleCat
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If you get the weekly Coin World you’ll undoubtedly have read the guest commentary by Alan Weinberg. For those who don’t know who he is, his collection is top notch and all raw until he started selling off at FUN in 2019. Anyway, some highlights of recommendations he made (my summary of them, there’s more specific details in the article):
- Eliminate registry sets
- Rotate graders from one set of coins to another to not see the same things for too long
- Eliminate grading of anything made recently or mint made
- Eliminate + grades
- Establish more specialists in different areas like colonials and ancients and don’t apply the same American standards to them
Do you think it’s possible for TPGs to do this? Would it really make anything better in the world of coins? Is it even economically feasible now? Has the Rubicon already been crossed? Horse out of the barn? Genie out of the bottle?
Please keep this TPG neutral as it really could apply to most/all of them pretty equally.
3
Comments
For those unfamiliar with Alan Weinberg, here’s a nice write up to give a summary of his background and collection. https://www.coinbooks.org/v21/esylum_v21n48a18.html
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
“In all my years of serious collecting, and I was never casual about it,” Weinberg says, “I am proud to say I never once bought a numismatic item for investment and that, in fact, investment was the last objective of any acquisition. I bought an item for its challenge to acquire, its absolute rarity, its aesthetics, top condition and historical importance. To sum it up, pride of ownership.”
That's how I feel about collecting.
So far as the rest of the article, he sounds like a typical old school EAC collector. They like to touch their coins.
My Saint Set
I don’t know but I wish I was. I’d love a few of his coins as hand-me-downs, lol!
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I feel it is impossible for me to critically comment on this list without reading the article for his explanations.
I suspect they will post it online. I don’t think it’s right to retype it all without permission.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
I absolutely disagree with parts of this.
1 Elimination of Registry sets ? I see no benefit to this. I like seeing where my sets are in comparison to others. I also like looking at others sets, even if I do not have sets in that particular series.
2 Does the TPG graders only look at certain series day after day ? Are you saying there are graders who only look at $ 20 gold ? Or all gold ? Seriously do not know, but I don't see how this would work with all the different series and 3 graders and a finalizer for each coin. A lot of manpower there. A lot of wages.
3 Eliminate grading anything recently or " mint made " Heck every coin In my collection was made at the mint. As far as recently made, some of us do not have the budget to play in the deep end of the pool. It has been said many times on this forum that we are an aging hobby. How many YN's start collecting non-modern coins. In essence Mr. Weinburg is advocating to eliminate the future of the hobby.
4 Eliminate + grades ? Why ? simply why ?
5 Deep end of the pool, so no opinion.
No, we're not related - but actually live
kinda close to each other !
Funny Story: When I was married 25+ years ago
my wife at the time, Ellen, would go to shows with me.
When Alan Weinberg was paged, it sounded like Ellen Weinberg,
and she would go up to the desk.
When Ellen Weinberg was paged, it sounded like Alan Weinberg,
and he would go up to the desk !
Yea, I too wish I was related to Alan, and I'm glad I'm no longer
related to Ellen !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Sorry, didn't mean the large text. Don't know how I did that. Anybody help me with that ?
Reading the first post, I had to check the date to see if it was April 1st.
Anyone is free to handle coin grading any way they choose.
Thying to get anyone else to do what you think "they should" do?
Yeah, good luck with that.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Mr. Weinberg's collection was displayed raw at winter FUN shows for a few years. Simply fabulous.
Doubt the hobby/business will ever go backwards regarding the recommendations.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
The suggestions, on their face, are ridiculous and sound as if the person putting them forth is jaded.
But to be fair, I am only commenting on the OP content, and have not read the article.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
You could try editing it and look to see if there are any odd characters in there anywhere.
Do you think it’s possible for TPGs to do this?
It's possible, but those suggestions would decrease TPG revenue, potentially dramatically. Therefore, the smart money would bet against their adoption at some point in the future.
Starting a line with a '#' character enlarges the following text. I begin lists with 1. (etc.), or use the list icon (above the text box), which does the same thing.
Graders look at their category, generally. World graders look at world coins. Vintage US graders look at vintage US. Modern US graders look at Modern US.
I am sure there are groups that usually handle certain bulk subs within TPG's or something, but for the most part, graders will see everything in their general category from my understanding. That is why it is a tough job, you need a lot of depth of knowledge as well as a wide base of it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
With a current stock price of $91.90 per share Collector's Universe is not going to be in a position to eliminate any portions of their business that generate solid revenue. It seems that many of the suggestions made would do just that.
I think most of his suggestions would have a negative revenue impact. I think his desire is to have the hobby return to a different time with the same sensibilities. I’ve read QDB opine similarly at times. Not exactly the same but some similar stuff.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Most everyone looks at POP reports to disern scarcity, OK
But how many also look at what dates & grades are missing or are in lower grades in the registry collections for an indication of the difficulty in obtaining those pieces. some higher grade sets may have circulated pieces here and there or even some details pieces. These are the folks who are actively looking to upgrade their sets and the stoppers are easily discerned maybe even some sleepers. Some of these stoppers can take years and the luck of opportunity to upgrade a date. I thing Registry sets bring a collecting community together. I know I have gained collecting friends through it
we share the same passions.
Krueger
There are different ways to do everything I suppose
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Dang! I didn't know anyone was filming me.
Alan is a great guy who has had a fabulous coin collection. And still has a fabulous Brasher Dubloon
He is entitled to speak his mind and so are we.
I agree, I'd just like to know his reasoning for his opinions. I don't see any benefit to the hobby.
All I can say is grading companies will never get rid of Registry sets as they are probably the most lucrative source of revenue for the TPGs.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Registry sets quite possibly for the same reasons as Mr. Weinberg, but to repeat myself 'it ain't gonna happen'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
That's one way to lose your beer belly........Like the man said, " It was all in good fun until somebody lost an eye."
His primary argument against registry sets is it creates big disparate valuations between grades. And he thinks that few people can see the difference between a grade, the plus, or the next grade up.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
See my sister thread with the title: A salute to Alan Weinberg of California!!!
Except Registry Sets also drive profits at the TPGs. Weinberg may be a fine numismatist, but he's missing the business point of registry sets.
I think it’s also playing into the gamification of everything that has been taking place over the last 10-15 years.
I can certainly understand the desire for things to be like they were and see price levels be less exaggerated but that won’t happen. The hobby, and it’s people, will keep moving forward whether we want it to or not.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
He can argue that people should ignore Registry Sets - I do. But he can't expect TPGs to get rid of them. It was the best idea they ever had.
...
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
According to the Alan Weinberg Profile article, Senor Weinberg and I have something in common as far as our collecting history is concerned. He mentioned that the summer after he graduated from high school he didn't have the $14,000 on hand to buy ....."the Virgil Brand specimen of the 1787 Brasher Doubloon." I didn't either. That's a lot of jack for an 18 year old ......I did buy a Chevy Station wagon right after high school. But it only cost 75 bucks.......aah, the memories of the drive-in movies. One time my mom asked me what movie we watched. I wasn't quite sure. Moms know.
Maybe that's true for him but those are the very things that make a coin expensive in the first place and worthy of saying it's an investment. Easy to say that when you have deep pockets. If I were to buy a 20k coin I would consider it an investment, losing or otherwise.
Probably for the best amigo.
"Eliminate Registry Sets." PCGS has as of today 108,724 U.S. coin registry sets. Eliminate them? Really?
Respectfully disagree...
However, I would appreciate if you can expand upon the notion of collecting without appreciation (ie...financial gain) vs appreciation (love/passion).
I have studied many collectors from across many fields.
It is amazing the quality, breadth, personal satisfaction, and (many times) the financial gain that can be amassed. This opposed to crackouts, flipping, wannabee ebay dealer such as myself.
Came to a realization, that anything worth collecting in numismatics, probably is not on the graysheet.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
He's not wearing flip flops so he's good.
Is this good timing since PCGS is going private?
I'm looking forward to reading the article.
At this point, I'll just point out the obvious fact that what is best for the hobby is not necessarily what's best for PCGS.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Don't start paragraphs with the hash sign.
As for Alan Weinberg's suggestions...ridiculous, if you consider their importance to and impact on the TPG's. As for the hobby, I think TPG success mirrors the hobby's.
Lance.
Alan Weinberg, I can say with direct knowledge is an incredibly dedicated, knowledgeable, diligent and well studied numismatist specializing in everything he collects. He can do it all from diligently and painstakingly researching to patiently waiting for the right opportunity to come along to acquire the coin/medal to valuing it accurately and conservatively. He also doesn't do too bad when he eventually says goodbye to the noted piece and sells it.
He is also a terrific guy, quite personable with a great sense of humor and charm and and is as honest as they get. I am proud to call him a friend. He makes the hobby a joy and brings and gives knowledge away for free daily. Cannot find a more giving man in this wonderful hobby of ours. The guy just incredibly helpful and caring. What else can I say other than he is a good man.
I don't have access to his further explanations, but how does the registry impact grading? I can see arguments for it's detriment to the hobby overall, but not really grading specifically. What am I missing?
No. 1, 3, and 4 are TPG cash cows. It will never happen in a million years.
He's going to have a problem if it breaks or he drops it on his foot. Ditto if it shoots debris into his eye.
I read the link to his bio. Obviously a great collector and an asset to the hobby. And, as stated everyone has a right to his opinions. I just have my own which differ from his. The hobby has evolved and IMO will not revert to what it once was.
I think Coin World will post this on their site soon but in the interest of fair use, here is the text of two of his 9 suggestions.
1 - Eliminate the registry set concept, which is entirely ego-driven and the sole cause of the dramatic price increases in the + category and in the Mint State 66 on up significant market price differences from one half point grade up.
5 - Eliminate the + category, which will significantly reduce resubmission volume. No one can tell the difference between a solid grade number, a + number, and the next grade up anyway. It’s pure imagination.
Obviously I picked two of the more provocative statements but they also are areas many of us have strong opinions regarding anyway. In a lot of ways I actually agree with him but I also see that the hobby has moved to the point where it couldn’t go back or simplify. It just isn’t realistic anymore.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
That's true, but then he really needs to put the burden on collectors not PCGS. Whitman blue books are not the best storage medium for coins. The solution is to educate collectors about the better options not suggest that Whitman stop selling the blue books.
I absolutely agree with #1. I've been saying it since they started the Registry. But that's exactly why it was so brilliant and exactly why it is silly to ask PCGS to end the practice.
His #5 is also largely spot on. This is especially true because if you had a 66, a 66+ and a 67, the 66 could actually be the more attractive coin.
BUT BUT BUT, the bottom line is you have to respect the market. As much as I would love all collectors to think like me - I'd get in fewer arguments! - the market is what it is. People like Registry Sets and there is no harm in their pursuing it. People like the numerical grade and bragging rights and there is no harm in pursuing it.
A few years ago I was on my way to my cousin's for a celebration. I stopped at the liquor store to buy wine. I know nothing about wine except for a few specific types that I enjoy. I wanted to get them something nice but don't know enough.
Soooo, the wine store had the Wine Spectator numerical ratings posted on the shelf. I was with my sister and we were talking, "this is nice looking and it got a 98", "doesn't she prefer white and this got a 96?".
The clerk came over and rolled his eyes and said, "You're not going to buy wine based on the numerical rating, are you?"
I said, quite honestly, "I don't know enough about wine so I need to go by something."
The clerk made a recommendation. We bought it and left. But I was a little miffed and said to my sister, "if he wants me to ignore the numbers, why did he put them on the shelf?"
No
He has his opinion but the present structure that exists is a foregone conclusion which has evolved based on dealers, TPG’s, and other market players.