Every time this issue comes up, I have to show my MS70 experiment and dispell the old wives tale. I ask anyone - what is the chemistry that would turn a copper coin permanently blue? My take is that most of the times, what MS70 does is remove patina and thus expose the underlying toning. Sometimes, it will, indeed turn a coin blue. But, this seems to be a reaction with a volatile compound, that goes away with time. It is not permanent. So ALL of the coins so far posted here, DO NOT have any reaction to MS70, what they have, IF, MS70 was used, removal of patina to expose the underlying surfaces. Prove me wrong with real, long term results. See my MS70 experiment below, the only copper coin I applied MS70 to that turned blue is this one. The other dozens, it did not. As you can see, this one, turned blue. Then, after a few years, the blue went away (volatile compound on the surface created by reaction of MS70 with the patina). I am a scientist, in fact, my science is a form of chemistry. So I will believe experimental results and an explanation that quantifies what is going on. But clearly, in my case, the one coin that turned blue, the blue went away with time. That is not what we are seeing with the blue toned copper that Eagle Eye and others are talking about, their red-blue-violet toning is stable for decades. So are they the result of MS70? Okay then, show the proof and just don't repeat an old wives tale.
@spacehayduke said:
Every time this issue comes up, I have to show my MS70 experiment and dispell the old wives tale. I ask anyone - what is the chemistry that would turn a copper coin permanently blue? My take is that most of the times, what MS70 does is remove patina and thus expose the underlying toning. Sometimes, it will, indeed turn a coin blue. But, this seems to be a reaction with a volatile compound, that goes away with time. It is not permanent. So ALL of the coins so far posted here, DO NOT have any reaction to MS70, what they have, IF, MS70 was used, removal of patina to expose the underlying surfaces. Prove me wrong with real, long term results. See my MS70 experiment below, the only copper coin I applied MS70 to that turned blue is this one. The other dozens, it did not. As you can see, this one, turned blue. Then, after a few years, the blue went away (volatile compound on the surface created by reaction of MS70 with the patina). I am a scientist, in fact, my science is a form of chemistry. So I will believe experimental results and an explanation that quantifies what is going on. But clearly, in my case, the one coin that turned blue, the blue went away with time. That is not what we are seeing with the blue toned copper that Eagle Eye and others are talking about, their red-blue-violet toning is stable for decades. So are they the result of MS70? Okay then, show the proof and just don't repeat an old wives tale.
Best, SH
My guess is that if you try it with several RB coins, you’ll get different results.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
My guess is that if you try it with several RB coins, you’ll get different results.
Does anyone have those results to show? The only way to know is 1, experiment, then 2, quantify by a reaction that will indicate you have made a stable compound by reacting MS70 with the surface of a copper coin.
The MSDS for MS70 shows it is a surfactant cleanser with a chelating agent (sodium gluconate), an anionic, sulfonate surfactant (solubilizing agent) and potassium hydroxide, and a pH of 13:
======================= SECTION II -COMPONENTS =====================ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED INERT MATERIAL PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 7732-18-5 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHE
"Surfactants are cleansing and foam-forming agents. They form the base of almost all cleansing products available. They mix with water and fat of the skin to remove dirt. The term "surfactant" is broadly used to denote surface activity and is noted for its ability to reduce the surface tension between two phases."
No reaction, just removal, unless there is some compound to react with. Again, I would love to see a chemist who knows these chemicals write out a reaction to produce some kind of compound from reacting with Cu that would give the toning (not the blue volatile compound I got that was volatile), that would have staying power on the surface of a copper coin.
@spacehayduke said:
Every time this issue comes up, I have to show my MS70 experiment and dispell the old wives tale. I ask anyone - what is the chemistry that would turn a copper coin permanently blue? My take is that most of the times, what MS70 does is remove patina and thus expose the underlying toning. Sometimes, it will, indeed turn a coin blue. But, this seems to be a reaction with a volatile compound, that goes away with time. It is not permanent. So ALL of the coins so far posted here, DO NOT have any reaction to MS70, what they have, IF, MS70 was used, removal of patina to expose the underlying surfaces. Prove me wrong with real, long term results. See my MS70 experiment below, the only copper coin I applied MS70 to that turned blue is this one. The other dozens, it did not. As you can see, this one, turned blue. Then, after a few years, the blue went away (volatile compound on the surface created by reaction of MS70 with the patina). I am a scientist, in fact, my science is a form of chemistry. So I will believe experimental results and an explanation that quantifies what is going on. But clearly, in my case, the one coin that turned blue, the blue went away with time. That is not what we are seeing with the blue toned copper that Eagle Eye and others are talking about, their red-blue-violet toning is stable for decades. So are they the result of MS70? Okay then, show the proof and just don't repeat an old wives tale.
Best, SH
So, are you saying that the blue hue is original or not? Sounds like your saying that it is...But I'm a little confused and certainly from a scientific perspective 1 of 3 isn't conclusive.
I don't know but, if rainbow toning is real which includes Blue, then why couldn't a coin just be blue. Is it a copper thing? Cupro-nickel does blue right?
@CoinscratchFever said:
So, are you saying that the blue hue is original or not? Sounds like your saying that it is...But I'm a little confused and certainly from a scientific perspective 1 of 3 isn't conclusive.
I'm pretty sure those are all the same coin, just pictures taken at 3 different times. The coin turned blue immediately after treatment, but then 3 years later (in 2014) it had changed to that mottled brown color.
@ironmanl63 said:
Has all blue copper been chemically enhanced? Does any blue copper exist that has not been chemically enhanced?
I am speaking of uncirculated lustrous examples. Proof or MS. There are plenty of obvious blue colored coins that have >been made. They are neither attractive nor lustrous.
I will trust in the experience at PCGS to make that decision for me! Who am I to disagree?
Have you travelled the world and the seven seas?
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I think SH's point was trumpeted by Rick Snow claiming the underlying color was allowed to shine through after treatment. I wish I could find that thread since there was vigorous counter argument.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
to spacehayduke --- the major flaw in your exercise is simple, Large Cents are pure Copper, IHC are Bronze and Lincoln Cents are Bronze.
this topic has been beat to death, hence, my page one image of same. suffice as to say that yes, I believe these Proof coins do have the capacity to turn blue and perhaps other iridescent colors. however, it is without a doubt also possible for MS70 to produce and/or accelerate that process. it is also true that members of this forum participated in a well known scam to do just that, right around 2003-4 when the numbers of these mainly blue-toned coins started to appear on the market.
what we need to acknowledge here is that the overall toned coin market almost certainly is comprised of a sizable number of Artificially Toned coins. to believe otherwise is folly, but as individuals we are certainly free to believe as much. the issue has even stymied PCGS/NGC at times, causing them to stop grading certain items. in the end, caveat emptor and buy what you like. the trouble arises when any of us dig in our feat(Sic) to defend the kingdom, either saying these are all good or all bad. the true answer is somewhere in between those two.
@CoinscratchFever said:
So, are you saying that the blue hue is original or not? Sounds like your saying that it is...But I'm a little confused and certainly from a scientific perspective 1 of 3 isn't conclusive.
I'm pretty sure those are all the same coin, just pictures taken at 3 different times. The coin turned blue immediately after treatment, but then 3 years later (in 2014) it had changed to that mottled brown color.
Yea, my golf buddy brought a bottle of Don Julio to the course Yesterday. We polished off the bottle and lets just say... I lost a few balls and had no business commenting here last night...
This one looks blue, lol.
My guess is that if you try it with several RB coins, you’ll get different results.
Does anyone have those results to show? The only way to know is 1, experiment, then 2, quantify by a reaction that will indicate you have made a stable compound by reacting MS70 with the surface of a copper coin.
The MSDS for MS70 shows it is a surfactant cleanser with a chelating agent (sodium gluconate), an anionic, sulfonate surfactant (solubilizing agent) and potassium hydroxide, and a pH of 13:
======================= SECTION II -COMPONENTS =====================ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED INERT MATERIAL PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 7732-18-5 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHE
"Surfactants are cleansing and foam-forming agents. They form the base of almost all cleansing products available. They mix with water and fat of the skin to remove dirt. The term "surfactant" is broadly used to denote surface activity and is noted for its ability to reduce the surface tension between two phases."
No reaction, just removal, unless there is some compound to react with. Again, I would love to see a chemist who knows these chemicals write out a reaction to produce some kind of compound from reacting with Cu that would give the toning (not the blue volatile compound I got that was volatile), that would have staying power on the surface of a copper coin.
Best, SH
Not an expert chemist by any means.... but I know enough to understand that potassium hydroxide is alkaline and is very corrosive... and probably what gives it the high pH of 13.
Reactions with copper (and copper sulfate) include.... copper hydroxide.... which has a bluegreen color. There are other copper reactions that can occur with Potassium hydroxide.
As I mentioned, I am not an expert; just want to point out that with a substance such as potassium hydroxide present in the solution... there most certainly can be chemical reactions taking place. If one wants to make the argument that the amount of KOH at 25ppm is not enough to be concerned about, I would counter that it is believed that toning surfaces are extremely thin... and do not require much to cause a film that will diffuse light in a colorful way.
@DRUNNER said:
This is deep enough down in the post as to not attract attention . .
I am a passionate numismatist, albeit not with a Hansen budget . . . see much, work within many aspects of the hobby.
Yet I am a learner still . . .a 'hack' . . . an 'uneducated' one from the peanut gallery . .
But I can recognize MS70 in the blink of an eye . . despite the previous thread which I read and found quite entertaining . . .
Drunner
I do not doubt you. Could you tell us which coins in this thread were made with MS70. I am really interested and love to learn. If you do not wish to share you info that is fine but I would love hear it. Thanks in advance.
@keets said:
to spacehayduke --- the major flaw in your exercise is simple, Large Cents are pure Copper, IHC are Bronze and Lincoln Cents are Bronze.
this topic has been beat to death, hence, my page one image of same. suffice as to say that yes, I believe these Proof coins do have the capacity to turn blue and perhaps other iridescent colors. however, it is without a doubt also possible for MS70 to produce and/or accelerate that process. it is also true that members of this forum participated in a well known scam to do just that, right around 2003-4 when the numbers of these mainly blue-toned coins started to appear on the market.
what we need to acknowledge here is that the overall toned coin market almost certainly is comprised of a sizable number of Artificially Toned coins. to believe otherwise is folly, but as individuals we are certainly free to believe as much. the issue has even stymied PCGS/NGC at times, causing them to stop grading certain items. in the end, caveat emptor and buy what you like. the trouble arises when any of us dig in our feat(Sic) to defend the kingdom, either saying these are all good or all bad. the true answer is somewhere in between those two.
One question I have is are these ms70 coins hard to identify? Do they stick out like a sore thumb? I thought I had developed a decent eye for original coins. It sucks but I may have to alter my thinking on that.
I have owned and have seen coins that are in old holders toned blue with CAC. I have also seen them in new holders with the same. Would the people with vast knowledge think that these have been made but are market acceptable? Or are there some examples that have naturally aquired the toning.
The blue toning can occur naturally. But perhaps they may have some dullness... due to other naturally occurring toning products. If the coin is brightly reflective blue... almost like a mirror.... I tend to suspect it has been treated or helped along. That is just my own opinion...
I do think the blue coppers are very beautify... just like many other toned coins can be. But I have no allusions in regards to them being totally natural. Then again... how many coins are there, that have NEVER been helped along at some point? Other than moderns, getting to be fewer and fewer.
A few years ago, I bought a bottle of MS70 to conserve some BU Lincoln Cents. They all turned blue. I never submitted any of them because I felt they became AT’d and I threw away the MS70.
@Veep said:
A few years ago, I bought a bottle of MS70 to conserve some BU Lincoln Cents. They all turned blue. I never submitted any of them because I felt they became AT’d and I threw away the MS70.
I am curious if the coins were still attractive. Did they have a natural look? I consider the ops coin to have a natural look. Were they similar to that or something else were a talented coin collector could say those have been monkeyed with?
This coin does not look like the ops coin and to me has a monkeyed with look.
Yeah. based on my results thus far, MS70 ruins copper. They seemed to end up with an "Environmental Damage" look to them. I threw them in acetone to see what happens.
Just like in the old (F4c) days, I wanted to "fire and forget" that missile and was sure no one would see my previous post. But like Steve Martin once said . . . "Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!"
Ironman . . . I DO certainly want to help but I also realize that going back through the posts and identifying those that (I think) are MS70'd has unlimited downside potential, and I am the FIRST one to admit that I could be wrong in SOME cases. There certainly are many 19th Century coins that have superb blue rim toning, and in some cases predominant blue surface toning (envelopes, Oberwise boards, Raymond albums). I think that is an unwritten reason why blue seems to be the color of choice in alteration of certain types of coins. It seems 'natural'.
But for me to assess veracity of toning has no basis or authenticity. I do enjoy toned coins. I own 'Bag Burn' . . . perhaps THE toned Morgan . . . and I have penned some articles years ago (under other names) on toning in the weekly numismatic mags. BUT . . . I leave the topic to those who have discussed it in the past. All I can attest to is what I have done firsthand. I can take any number of RB and BN IHCs from 1900-1908 (Circ strikes) and do a simple MS70 rinse, as anyone on these Boards can (and many have done) . . . and produce a blue color. Same with early Lincolns. I started by accident . . . then saw the similar color on so many copper coins at shows it became evident what was happening, especially when you ask 2, or 5, or 20 bourse dealers to verify your thoughts . . . and they admit exactly what you know.
This thread has been discussed before, and I stayed out. I should now too. I collect, enjoy toners, and realize when I am in over my head. Maybe that time is now . . . . . .
Thank you for the response. I am still learning and appreciate the help. I will definitely look at these blue Indians/Lincolns differently now. When I find them attractive and when it appears to me as original I will probably still buy them. I am not building a set but I collect things I find attractive. I guess it is quite similar to some attractive white coins that have had a dip to help them along the way. Thanks to the op for the post and those who have responded. I feel as if I have learned a little.
@spacehayduke said:
Every time this issue comes up, I have to show my MS70 experiment and dispell the old wives tale. I ask anyone - what is the chemistry that would turn a copper coin permanently blue? My take is that most of the times, what MS70 does is remove patina and thus expose the underlying toning. Sometimes, it will, indeed turn a coin blue. But, this seems to be a reaction with a volatile compound, that goes away with time. It is not permanent. So ALL of the coins so far posted here, DO NOT have any reaction to MS70, what they have, IF, MS70 was used, removal of patina to expose the underlying surfaces. Prove me wrong with real, long term results. See my MS70 experiment below, the only copper coin I applied MS70 to that turned blue is this one. The other dozens, it did not. As you can see, this one, turned blue. Then, after a few years, the blue went away (volatile compound on the surface created by reaction of MS70 with the patina). I am a scientist, in fact, my science is a form of chemistry. So I will believe experimental results and an explanation that quantifies what is going on. But clearly, in my case, the one coin that turned blue, the blue went away with time. That is not what we are seeing with the blue toned copper that Eagle Eye and others are talking about, their red-blue-violet toning is stable for decades. So are they the result of MS70? Okay then, show the proof and just don't repeat an old wives tale.
Best, SH
My guess is that if you try it with several RB coins, you’ll get different results.
This. Not because they react differently, but because the composition of every coin differs. +-.4% copper is acceptable in any alloy mix, yet with the mint the tolerance may be bigger. I love the coin, and it, at least to me, is acceptable in each phase. That's a subject to be discussed later. My opinion may not matter, since my degree is in Geology.
@airplanenut said:
Not super deep blue, but bluest I have. Old photos leave something to be desired...
Can't help but wonder why not reholder ? What color is on the holder ?
It’s a brown. In general I’m too lazy to reholder coins, especially with how expensive it is when you add in shipping. I got the coin in 2004 I think. I’m fine with it as is, and I’m pretty sure I’d get a better photo of I retook one now.
This coin does not look like the ops coin and to me has a monkeyed with look.
Yeah. based on my results thus far, MS70 ruins copper. They seemed to end up with an "Environmental Damage" look to them. I threw them in acetone to see what happens.
A thread from 2017 @stealer of test with copper and MS70:
Yeah, MS 70 can change the color of copper for sure. Seems like only 1/3 change in any dramatic way. My coins usually end up looking very wrong. I can see though, if used by someone skilled, how color could be enhanced in copper.
The differences in the appearance of post-MS70'd coins is largely related to what happens AFTER the MS70 treatment. The best way to mute the blue and yet keep the luster from MS70 is to hit the coin with the old "CoinCare" solution banned by government CFC regulations. It produces a subdued blue/brown coloration (post-MS70) yet preserves the luster. So . . . your early 64 BN Lincoln goes to a 65 or 65+ luster bomb . . . . . . .
I am getting waaaaaaaaay too far into this . . . . . . time to take the dogs for a drive in the F-150 . . . . . . .
Comments
I wonder if they sell as well w/o the blue? I would favor the blue color over the so-called original color, as would the Aztecs
Every time this issue comes up, I have to show my MS70 experiment and dispell the old wives tale. I ask anyone - what is the chemistry that would turn a copper coin permanently blue? My take is that most of the times, what MS70 does is remove patina and thus expose the underlying toning. Sometimes, it will, indeed turn a coin blue. But, this seems to be a reaction with a volatile compound, that goes away with time. It is not permanent. So ALL of the coins so far posted here, DO NOT have any reaction to MS70, what they have, IF, MS70 was used, removal of patina to expose the underlying surfaces. Prove me wrong with real, long term results. See my MS70 experiment below, the only copper coin I applied MS70 to that turned blue is this one. The other dozens, it did not. As you can see, this one, turned blue. Then, after a few years, the blue went away (volatile compound on the surface created by reaction of MS70 with the patina). I am a scientist, in fact, my science is a form of chemistry. So I will believe experimental results and an explanation that quantifies what is going on. But clearly, in my case, the one coin that turned blue, the blue went away with time. That is not what we are seeing with the blue toned copper that Eagle Eye and others are talking about, their red-blue-violet toning is stable for decades. So are they the result of MS70? Okay then, show the proof and just don't repeat an old wives tale.
Best, SH
My guess is that if you try it with several RB coins, you’ll get different results.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Does anyone have those results to show? The only way to know is 1, experiment, then 2, quantify by a reaction that will indicate you have made a stable compound by reacting MS70 with the surface of a copper coin.
The MSDS for MS70 shows it is a surfactant cleanser with a chelating agent (sodium gluconate), an anionic, sulfonate surfactant (solubilizing agent) and potassium hydroxide, and a pH of 13:
======================= SECTION II -COMPONENTS =====================ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED INERT MATERIAL PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED CAS #: 7732-18-5 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHE
"Surfactants are cleansing and foam-forming agents. They form the base of almost all cleansing products available. They mix with water and fat of the skin to remove dirt. The term "surfactant" is broadly used to denote surface activity and is noted for its ability to reduce the surface tension between two phases."
No reaction, just removal, unless there is some compound to react with. Again, I would love to see a chemist who knows these chemicals write out a reaction to produce some kind of compound from reacting with Cu that would give the toning (not the blue volatile compound I got that was volatile), that would have staying power on the surface of a copper coin.
Best, SH
So, are you saying that the blue hue is original or not? Sounds like your saying that it is...But I'm a little confused and certainly from a scientific perspective 1 of 3 isn't conclusive.
I don't know but, if rainbow toning is real which includes Blue, then why couldn't a coin just be blue. Is it a copper thing? Cupro-nickel does blue right?
I'm pretty sure those are all the same coin, just pictures taken at 3 different times. The coin turned blue immediately after treatment, but then 3 years later (in 2014) it had changed to that mottled brown color.
Have you travelled the world and the seven seas?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I think SH's point was trumpeted by Rick Snow claiming the underlying color was allowed to shine through after treatment. I wish I could find that thread since there was vigorous counter argument.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Copper roof:
As I recall, that picture has been widely used in commercials by the manufacturers of MS70, in order illustrate its wondrous results.😉😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
to spacehayduke --- the major flaw in your exercise is simple, Large Cents are pure Copper, IHC are Bronze and Lincoln Cents are Bronze.
this topic has been beat to death, hence, my page one image of same. suffice as to say that yes, I believe these Proof coins do have the capacity to turn blue and perhaps other iridescent colors. however, it is without a doubt also possible for MS70 to produce and/or accelerate that process. it is also true that members of this forum participated in a well known scam to do just that, right around 2003-4 when the numbers of these mainly blue-toned coins started to appear on the market.
what we need to acknowledge here is that the overall toned coin market almost certainly is comprised of a sizable number of Artificially Toned coins. to believe otherwise is folly, but as individuals we are certainly free to believe as much. the issue has even stymied PCGS/NGC at times, causing them to stop grading certain items. in the end, caveat emptor and buy what you like. the trouble arises when any of us dig in our feat(Sic) to defend the kingdom, either saying these are all good or all bad. the true answer is somewhere in between those two.
My blueist Indian........PR67BN
But the reverse is more pink than blue. If it was "dipped" would not the obverse and reverse be the same color?
OINK
Can't help but wonder why not reholder ? What color is on the holder ?
While I’m not saying anything was done, something could have easily been applied to the obverse, but not the reverse.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is deep enough down in the post as to not attract attention . .
I am a passionate numismatist, albeit not with a Hansen budget . . . see much, work within many aspects of the hobby.
Yet I am a learner still . . .a 'hack' . . . an 'uneducated' one from the peanut gallery . .
But I can recognize MS70 in the blink of an eye . . despite the previous thread which I read and found quite entertaining . . .
Drunner
WOW! That is close to perfection!
Yea, my golf buddy brought a bottle of Don Julio to the course Yesterday. We polished off the bottle and lets just say... I lost a few balls and had no business commenting here last night...
This one looks blue, lol.
Well, I busted out my lab and through the magic of MS70 I managed to turn this coin...
Into this coin...
But the coin doesn't look right, it certainly wouldn't fool anyone here.
My Blue Coin Doctor
My granddaughter caught "blue handed" while creating this one........
Nice job on the blue color........ it graded PR67BN!
OINK
Don't ask how, but I read the title as "Blue Copper". My apologies for the off-topic post!
Not an expert chemist by any means.... but I know enough to understand that potassium hydroxide is alkaline and is very corrosive... and probably what gives it the high pH of 13.
Reactions with copper (and copper sulfate) include.... copper hydroxide.... which has a bluegreen color. There are other copper reactions that can occur with Potassium hydroxide.
As I mentioned, I am not an expert; just want to point out that with a substance such as potassium hydroxide present in the solution... there most certainly can be chemical reactions taking place. If one wants to make the argument that the amount of KOH at 25ppm is not enough to be concerned about, I would counter that it is believed that toning surfaces are extremely thin... and do not require much to cause a film that will diffuse light in a colorful way.
I do not doubt you. Could you tell us which coins in this thread were made with MS70. I am really interested and love to learn. If you do not wish to share you info that is fine but I would love hear it. Thanks in advance.
One question I have is are these ms70 coins hard to identify? Do they stick out like a sore thumb? I thought I had developed a decent eye for original coins. It sucks but I may have to alter my thinking on that.
I have owned and have seen coins that are in old holders toned blue with CAC. I have also seen them in new holders with the same. Would the people with vast knowledge think that these have been made but are market acceptable? Or are there some examples that have naturally aquired the toning.
No worries, all toned copper is welcome!
And ............. 😈
The blue toning can occur naturally. But perhaps they may have some dullness... due to other naturally occurring toning products. If the coin is brightly reflective blue... almost like a mirror.... I tend to suspect it has been treated or helped along. That is just my own opinion...
I do think the blue coppers are very beautify... just like many other toned coins can be. But I have no allusions in regards to them being totally natural. Then again... how many coins are there, that have NEVER been helped along at some point? Other than moderns, getting to be fewer and fewer.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/13974290
PR64RB
A few years ago, I bought a bottle of MS70 to conserve some BU Lincoln Cents. They all turned blue. I never submitted any of them because I felt they became AT’d and I threw away the MS70.
I am curious if the coins were still attractive. Did they have a natural look? I consider the ops coin to have a natural look. Were they similar to that or something else were a talented coin collector could say those have been monkeyed with?
This coin does not look like the ops coin and to me has a monkeyed with look.
Yeah. based on my results thus far, MS70 ruins copper. They seemed to end up with an "Environmental Damage" look to them. I threw them in acetone to see what happens.
Bought this from Mark Feld a few years ago
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Doggoneit . . . . .
Just like in the old (F4c) days, I wanted to "fire and forget" that missile and was sure no one would see my previous post. But like Steve Martin once said . . . "Nooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!"
Ironman . . . I DO certainly want to help but I also realize that going back through the posts and identifying those that (I think) are MS70'd has unlimited downside potential, and I am the FIRST one to admit that I could be wrong in SOME cases. There certainly are many 19th Century coins that have superb blue rim toning, and in some cases predominant blue surface toning (envelopes, Oberwise boards, Raymond albums). I think that is an unwritten reason why blue seems to be the color of choice in alteration of certain types of coins. It seems 'natural'.
But for me to assess veracity of toning has no basis or authenticity. I do enjoy toned coins. I own 'Bag Burn' . . . perhaps THE toned Morgan . . . and I have penned some articles years ago (under other names) on toning in the weekly numismatic mags. BUT . . . I leave the topic to those who have discussed it in the past. All I can attest to is what I have done firsthand. I can take any number of RB and BN IHCs from 1900-1908 (Circ strikes) and do a simple MS70 rinse, as anyone on these Boards can (and many have done) . . . and produce a blue color. Same with early Lincolns. I started by accident . . . then saw the similar color on so many copper coins at shows it became evident what was happening, especially when you ask 2, or 5, or 20 bourse dealers to verify your thoughts . . . and they admit exactly what you know.
This thread has been discussed before, and I stayed out. I should now too. I collect, enjoy toners, and realize when I am in over my head. Maybe that time is now . . . . . .
Drunner
@DRUNNER
Thank you for the response. I am still learning and appreciate the help. I will definitely look at these blue Indians/Lincolns differently now. When I find them attractive and when it appears to me as original I will probably still buy them. I am not building a set but I collect things I find attractive. I guess it is quite similar to some attractive white coins that have had a dip to help them along the way. Thanks to the op for the post and those who have responded. I feel as if I have learned a little.
This. Not because they react differently, but because the composition of every coin differs. +-.4% copper is acceptable in any alloy mix, yet with the mint the tolerance may be bigger. I love the coin, and it, at least to me, is acceptable in each phase. That's a subject to be discussed later. My opinion may not matter, since my degree is in Geology.
It’s a brown. In general I’m too lazy to reholder coins, especially with how expensive it is when you add in shipping. I got the coin in 2004 I think. I’m fine with it as is, and I’m pretty sure I’d get a better photo of I retook one now.
A thread from 2017 @stealer of test with copper and MS70:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/984489/ms70-and-blue-copper-test-v1/p1
I ran a test with mS70 on copper sheet a few years ago, and it resulted in the pale blue color you encountered;
And the color imparted by the MS70 does not seem to last as previously posted by @spacehayduke
Yeah, MS 70 can change the color of copper for sure. Seems like only 1/3 change in any dramatic way. My coins usually end up looking very wrong. I can see though, if used by someone skilled, how color could be enhanced in copper.
Here was an interesting result...
BigJohn . .
The differences in the appearance of post-MS70'd coins is largely related to what happens AFTER the MS70 treatment. The best way to mute the blue and yet keep the luster from MS70 is to hit the coin with the old "CoinCare" solution banned by government CFC regulations. It produces a subdued blue/brown coloration (post-MS70) yet preserves the luster. So . . . your early 64 BN Lincoln goes to a 65 or 65+ luster bomb . . . . . . .
I am getting waaaaaaaaay too far into this . . . . . . time to take the dogs for a drive in the F-150 . . . . . . .
Drunner