The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
The last sentence would appear to cover BST purchases/sales (regardless of the nature of the relationship between the parties). And it doesn’t sound at all ambiguous.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
The original question concerns using Fee Free payments for forum transactions.
Because I consider a sale between collectors on the forum to NOT be a commercial transaction, I fully believe that using Fee Free paypal is NOT unethical.
Also how could a Fee Free payment be considered a violation of terms by Paypal when there was no paypal request for payment or invoice sent from paypal? Without one of those two items Paypal has no idea what the transfer was for.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Well, since PayPal now keeps the fee's on a cancelled or returned item via eBay you need to recover these costs and F & F is one way to help with that.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@derryb said:
The original question concerns using Fee Free payments for forum transactions.
Because I consider a sale between collectors on the forum to NOT be a commercial transaction, I fully believe that using Fee Free paypal is NOT unethical.
Also how could a Fee Free payment be considered a violation of terms by Paypal when there was no paypal request for payment or invoice sent from paypal? Without one of those two items Paypal has no idea what the transfer was for.
Since a post has indicated, that according to PayPal, the below is a “commercial transaction”, how can you consider a BST transaction, otherwise?
“When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Is it unethical for banks to take in $1,000 in cash from a customer and then using that as the reserve requirement to lend out $7,000 to another customer, collecting 5% interest from the borrower and only paying the person to has $1,000 in cash 1% in interest?
END FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING!
END THE FED!
To the OP, if there is a will, there is a way. Any loopholes worth closing would be closed.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@jessewvu said:
Is it unethical for banks to take in $1,000 in cash from a customer and then using that as the reserve requirement to lend out $7,000 to another customer, collecting 5% interest from the borrower and only paying the person to has $1,000 in cash 1% in interest?
END FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING!
END THE FED!
To the OP, if there is a will, there is a way. Any loopholes worth closing would be closed.
What does the behavior of banks have to do with the question that was posed? And regardless of how much you might dislike it, in doing what you described, are the banks breaking any laws, regulations or terms of service?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Paypal has the no fee policy for convenience to recruit more usage. Eventually continued convenience is instinctual and more usage would take place. Therefore fee usage would eventually grow and so on.
The personal transaction provision is gray and nebulous and they know that, they aren't stupid.
In this case I don't think they would care as the transactions are in many cases one off and sporadic.
Is it unethical? Because they would not pursue a fee the argument can be made it would not be unethical.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
PayPal is trading almost at a all-time high for the history of the company with a market cap now of over $250,000,000,000.00. That’s 1/4 trillion dollars. Why are we even having this conversation! 😂
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@wondercoin said:
PayPal is trading almost at a all-time high for the history of the company with a market cap now of over $250,000,000,000.00. That’s 1/4 trillion dollars. Why are we even having this conversation! 😂
Wondercoin
Mitch, in answer to your question - because we have market caps that are (at least slightly) less?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@CoinPhysicist said:
I always considered the fee to be for paying with a credit card and the protection to be secondary. When you pay Paypal goods and service and get hit with the fee, you pay with a credit card. Likewise, you actually can pay with Paypal friends and family and use a credit card, it just gets you hit with a fee, it's actually larger than the PPGS fee if I remember correctly. You can also do Paypal friends and family with no card for no fee which is what the question was.
That being said, if you pay Paypal friends and family for a coin, be really careful, be sure to write no comments in the comment box. If not, you risk getting in trouble with paypal.
Why would you get in trouble with PayPal if you’re not violating their terms?
If you write a message on the paypal friends and family and it resembles reminding the seller what you purchased from them, I know many examples of it messing up the seller's paypal account. Like they have to call into paypal and try to sweet talk getting their account re-allowed. There is another forum where I sell stuff, we always tell new buyers 'do not write anything on the paypal message area' when paying with PPFF because we've had numerous sellers get in trouble with paypal.
Not unethical, and it has nothing to do with what the fee is "supposed" to be for. (So my answer doesn't really fit the poll).
When doing a transaction, both sides should clearly understand the risks involved. Misrepresenting these risks would obviously be unethical.
@CoinPhysicist said:
I always considered the fee to be for paying with a credit card and the protection to be secondary. When you pay Paypal goods and service and get hit with the fee, you pay with a credit card. Likewise, you actually can pay with Paypal friends and family and use a credit card, it just gets you hit with a fee, it's actually larger than the PPGS fee if I remember correctly. You can also do Paypal friends and family with no card for no fee which is what the question was.
That being said, if you pay Paypal friends and family for a coin, be really careful, be sure to write no comments in the comment box. If not, you risk getting in trouble with paypal.
Why would you get in trouble with PayPal if you’re not violating their terms?
If you write a message on the paypal friends and family and it resembles reminding the seller what you purchased from them, I know many examples of it messing up the seller's paypal account. Like they have to call into paypal and try to sweet talk getting their account re-allowed. There is another forum where I sell stuff, we always tell new buyers 'do not write anything on the paypal message area' when paying with PPFF because we've had numerous sellers get in trouble with paypal.
Do the sellers get into trouble because they’ve been caught violating PayPal policy or for some other reason? If the former, that seems as if it might answer the question posed in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
What would I do if everyone was watching even though no one is around?
That's not close to what I said.
I understand. I just always heard it stated the way I put. Would you act the same way if what you did was posted on the front page of the newspaper for all to see? It's just a different way of looking at it I guess.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@CoinPhysicist said:
I always considered the fee to be for paying with a credit card and the protection to be secondary. When you pay Paypal goods and service and get hit with the fee, you pay with a credit card. Likewise, you actually can pay with Paypal friends and family and use a credit card, it just gets you hit with a fee, it's actually larger than the PPGS fee if I remember correctly. You can also do Paypal friends and family with no card for no fee which is what the question was.
That being said, if you pay Paypal friends and family for a coin, be really careful, be sure to write no comments in the comment box. If not, you risk getting in trouble with paypal.
@jessewvu said:
Is it unethical for banks to take in $1,000 in cash from a customer and then using that as the reserve requirement to lend out $7,000 to another customer, collecting 5% interest from the borrower and only paying the person to has $1,000 in cash 1% in interest?
END FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING!
END THE FED!
To the OP, if there is a will, there is a way. Any loopholes worth closing would be closed.
What does the behavior of banks have to do with the question that was posed? And regardless of how much you might dislike it, in doing what you described, are the banks breaking any laws, regulations or terms of service?
Banks are the largest enabler of laundered drug money. They don't have an ethics issue with that.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
EDITED: I didn't see Mason's second post which clearly contains a clause clearly barring personal payments for payment for goods and service. There is no ambiguity or vagueness there.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
I don’t feel that there’s any ambiguity to the last sentence below. Do you?
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
I think that by leaving it up to the users, PayPal has removed the ethical dilemma. They call it Friends and Family to put the onus on you to trust the other party.
There are two options. One for if you want “help” in protecting yourself, and one if you’re good to go with the other party.
If there was only one option, but a loophole that could be exploited without PP’s knowledge/consent that would allow you to circumvent the fee, then that would be unethical. Choosing the option the has neither fees, nor protection, because you’re OK with the risk is not inappropriate.
@ShaunBC5 said:
I think that by leaving it up to the users, PayPal has removed the ethical dilemma. They call it Friends and Family to put the onus on you to trust the other party.
There are two options. One for if you want “help” in protecting yourself, and one if you’re good to go with the other party.
If there was only one option, but a loophole that could be exploited without PP’s knowledge/consent that would allow you to circumvent the fee, then that would be unethical. Choosing the option the has neither fees, nor protection, because you’re OK with the risk is not inappropriate.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
They have clarified it over the years. The language, as posted by @MasonG and highlighted by @MFeld specifically says you can not use F&F for "goods and services".
@CoinPhysicist said:
I always considered the fee to be for paying with a credit card and the protection to be secondary. When you pay Paypal goods and service and get hit with the fee, you pay with a credit card. Likewise, you actually can pay with Paypal friends and family and use a credit card, it just gets you hit with a fee, it's actually larger than the PPGS fee if I remember correctly. You can also do Paypal friends and family with no card for no fee which is what the question was.
That being said, if you pay Paypal friends and family for a coin, be really careful, be sure to write no comments in the comment box. If not, you risk getting in trouble with paypal.
Why would you get in trouble with PayPal if you’re not violating their terms?
If you write a message on the paypal friends and family and it resembles reminding the seller what you purchased from them, I know many examples of it messing up the seller's paypal account. Like they have to call into paypal and try to sweet talk getting their account re-allowed. There is another forum where I sell stuff, we always tell new buyers 'do not write anything on the paypal message area' when paying with PPFF because we've had numerous sellers get in trouble with paypal.
Do the sellers get into trouble because they’ve been caught violating PayPal policy or for some other reason? If the former, that seems as if it might answer the question posed in this thread.
I assume that's the reason why, I've never looked into it exactly - That paypal friends and family is supposed to be for non-transactions, like giving money to a friend. I don't really see an issue with using it for transaction though, I do it all the time.
As I remember it the original intent for the F and F option was for a grandmother to send say $25 to a grandkid for their birthday or whatever. Sending someone $2,036.94 with the note Happy Birthday sort of violates the spirit of that intent I would think. I've given PP plenty of business both ways.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@ShaunBC5 said:
I think that by leaving it up to the users, PayPal has removed the ethical dilemma. They call it Friends and Family to put the onus on you to trust the other party.
There are two options. One for if you want “help” in protecting yourself, and one if you’re good to go with the other party.
If there was only one option, but a loophole that could be exploited without PP’s knowledge/consent that would allow you to circumvent the fee, then that would be unethical. Choosing the option the has neither fees, nor protection, because you’re OK with the risk is not inappropriate.
On it’s own, that sounds good...But I keep coming back to the (crystal-clear) last sentence below:
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
I don’t feel that there’s any ambiguity to the last sentence below. Do you?
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
I didn't see @MasonG 's second post. I only saw the abbreviated first post and thought that was the one being referenced. There is no ambiguity there and the rest of my argument, based on other PayPal pages, falls apart.
When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
For the listings of selling rates, please visit our PayPal Merchant Fees Page.
Just sayin'.
Thank you.
In the absence of PayPal terms which clearly contradict the above, I’d like to change my vote to “Unethical.”
Are the terms "personal payment" and "commercial transaction" necessarily mutually exclusive? I do not interpret the terms to be mutually exclusive. Moreover when you submit funds the phrase "commercial transaction" is conspicuously absent and you are presented with a fee or fee free option, both of which could apply to a given transaction. PayPal explicitly allows personal payments to anyone in the U.S. for free on its webpage distinguishing between "friends and family" and regular PayPal option. If anything I see it as vagueness/ambiguity by PayPal rather than an ethical issue per se.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
I don’t feel that there’s any ambiguity to the last sentence below. Do you?
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
I didn't see @MasonG 's second post. I only saw the abbreviated first post and thought that was the one being referenced. There is no ambiguity there and the rest of my argument, based on other PayPal pages, falls apart.
It’s an interesting and confusing topic. Until I saw that post from MasonG, I was having a fierce ethical debate with myself. 😉 At this point, I hope no one posts a different paragraph from PayPal, which conflicts with that one.😬
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
This feels a lot like an “ethical dilemma” created at the “take-a-penny/leave-a-penny” at the gas station.
I really feel like PayPal has written the rules so that they are covered in any instance, but have no intent or desire to enforce what they’ve written (at least not at this moment). Their legal “you shall not” covers them in case of swindling between friends or non-friends.
They couldn’t leave it completely free and open as the Wild West because “business” could be transacted and PayPal be held liable for where the funds went and what they were for. They haven’t shut any gates, but put up clear “buyer/seller beware” language with the opportunity to have some PayPal assurance, for a fee.
In a book I like someone asked the teacher “then who is my neighbor?” And a pretty broad answer was given. I think the same (or similar, I’m probably stretching a bit here) can be applied to “Friends and Family” because PayPal just doesn’t want to get in trouble end offers a way for business transactions to stay more trouble-free (for a fee).
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
I think I saw it mentioned....and ignored....earlier in this thread that people CAN use "friends and family" and still voluntarily pay the fee......
I have done this, as a buyer, in the past....someone requested PPF&F (not even PP+fees) and I agreed to the purchase. When I made the purchase, I paid for it AND I chose, as part of the paypal process, to pay the fee. Seller never saw that...they just know that they asked for $300.00 and got $300.00
I paid the fee on my end. My choice.
If I ask for PPF&F, then it only means, to me, I want to NOT eat the fee myself. Pay me with regular PP and figure out the fee and add it on, or use PPF&F and pay the fee without me seeing it....I don't care. Up to the buyer to decide.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
@abcde12345 said:
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
@abcde12345 said:
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
Most theaters make their money based on concessions and not the movie itself. So, go ahead and steal. Teach your kids to steal too. Boomer.
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
I have buyers pay for domestic purchases with PayPal good and services. I often have foreign buyers pay with friends and family, as they are shipping their purchases to a known domestic address for consolidation and reshipment later.
@abcde12345 said:
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
Most theaters make their money based on concessions and not the movie itself. So, go ahead and steal. Teach your kids to steal too. Boomer.
There's a difference between ignoring/violating theater policy and stealing. Bringing and eating your own food amounts to the former, but not the latter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@abcde12345 said:
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
Most theaters make their money based on concessions and not the movie itself. So, go ahead and steal. Teach your kids to steal too. Boomer.
if your business model depends on idiots paying 20 bucks for popcorn then your demise is entirely predictable
No, unethical. The fee is for protection, not the transfer of money.
it is peculiar to me to see even this small sampling of people in agreement with paying a fee to transfer money. this in an age when so many get upset about paying taxes, the rising cost of anything and who will gladly try to buy coins on the cheap whenever they can, but willingly pay to transfer money. I will bookmark this thread and in the future, if I sell anything via the BST, I will gladly charge the "red boxed" respondents an additional 3% because, hey, they don't mind paying it.
@abcde12345 said:
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
Most theaters make their money based on concessions and not the movie itself. So, go ahead and steal. Teach your kids to steal too. Boomer.
you think me putting something I own in my pocket is stealing?
Comments
I vote Oy Vey.
From PayPal's User Agreement:
Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
The last sentence would appear to cover BST purchases/sales (regardless of the nature of the relationship between the parties). And it doesn’t sound at all ambiguous.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The issue is the goods. They appear to be mutually exclusive as defined by PayPal. See above.
The original question concerns using Fee Free payments for forum transactions.
Because I consider a sale between collectors on the forum to NOT be a commercial transaction, I fully believe that using Fee Free paypal is NOT unethical.
Also how could a Fee Free payment be considered a violation of terms by Paypal when there was no paypal request for payment or invoice sent from paypal? Without one of those two items Paypal has no idea what the transfer was for.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Well, since PayPal now keeps the fee's on a cancelled or returned item via eBay you need to recover these costs and F & F is one way to help with that.
Since a post has indicated, that according to PayPal, the below is a “commercial transaction”, how can you consider a BST transaction, otherwise?
“When you buy or sell goods or services, make any other commercial type of transaction, send or receive a charity donation, or receive a payment when you “request money” using PayPal, we call that a “commercial transaction”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's not close to what I said.
Is it unethical for banks to take in $1,000 in cash from a customer and then using that as the reserve requirement to lend out $7,000 to another customer, collecting 5% interest from the borrower and only paying the person to has $1,000 in cash 1% in interest?
END FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING!
END THE FED!
To the OP, if there is a will, there is a way. Any loopholes worth closing would be closed.
What does the behavior of banks have to do with the question that was posed? And regardless of how much you might dislike it, in doing what you described, are the banks breaking any laws, regulations or terms of service?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You guys still on this.....damn !! Go read a book.
Paypal has the no fee policy for convenience to recruit more usage. Eventually continued convenience is instinctual and more usage would take place. Therefore fee usage would eventually grow and so on.
The personal transaction provision is gray and nebulous and they know that, they aren't stupid.
In this case I don't think they would care as the transactions are in many cases one off and sporadic.
Is it unethical? Because they would not pursue a fee the argument can be made it would not be unethical.
PayPal is trading almost at a all-time high for the history of the company with a market cap now of over $250,000,000,000.00. That’s 1/4 trillion dollars. Why are we even having this conversation! 😂
Wondercoin
Well, I guess payPal will be taking a BIG hit when eBay managed payments are forced upon most sellers at the end of December.
Mitch, in answer to your question - because we have market caps that are (at least slightly) less?😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
ANA LM
USAF Retired — 34 years of active military service! 🇺🇸
If you write a message on the paypal friends and family and it resembles reminding the seller what you purchased from them, I know many examples of it messing up the seller's paypal account. Like they have to call into paypal and try to sweet talk getting their account re-allowed. There is another forum where I sell stuff, we always tell new buyers 'do not write anything on the paypal message area' when paying with PPFF because we've had numerous sellers get in trouble with paypal.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Not unethical, and it has nothing to do with what the fee is "supposed" to be for. (So my answer doesn't really fit the poll).
When doing a transaction, both sides should clearly understand the risks involved. Misrepresenting these risks would obviously be unethical.
Do the sellers get into trouble because they’ve been caught violating PayPal policy or for some other reason? If the former, that seems as if it might answer the question posed in this thread.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I understand. I just always heard it stated the way I put. Would you act the same way if what you did was posted on the front page of the newspaper for all to see? It's just a different way of looking at it I guess.
whatever you do , don't mention Cuba!
Banks are the largest enabler of laundered drug money. They don't have an ethics issue with that.
going unprotected is more fun in all things
A transaction involving goods is absolutely commercial as defined there; we all agree. My position is notwithstanding the fact that it is a "commercial transaction," it can still also be considered a "personal payment." PayPal explicitly states that personal payments can be made to anyone in the U.S. for free. It doesn't qualify it to say that this applies only to non-commercial personal payments. As such, it would seemingly leave that decision to the parties and their own aversion to risk. If vague, ambiguous, or otherwise unclear, contracts are construed against the draftsman (i.e. PayPal here).
EDITED: I didn't see Mason's second post which clearly contains a clause clearly barring personal payments for payment for goods and service. There is no ambiguity or vagueness there.
I don’t feel that there’s any ambiguity to the last sentence below. Do you?
@MasonG said:
From PayPal's User Agreement:
Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think that by leaving it up to the users, PayPal has removed the ethical dilemma. They call it Friends and Family to put the onus on you to trust the other party.
There are two options. One for if you want “help” in protecting yourself, and one if you’re good to go with the other party.
If there was only one option, but a loophole that could be exploited without PP’s knowledge/consent that would allow you to circumvent the fee, then that would be unethical. Choosing the option the has neither fees, nor protection, because you’re OK with the risk is not inappropriate.
Great point
They have clarified it over the years. The language, as posted by @MasonG and highlighted by @MFeld specifically says you can not use F&F for "goods and services".
It is my understanding that you can still use PayPal through the managed payments gateway.
eBay managed payments just gives the buyer more flexibility.
https://pages.ebay.com/seller-center/service-and-payments/managed-payments-on-ebay.html
I assume that's the reason why, I've never looked into it exactly - That paypal friends and family is supposed to be for non-transactions, like giving money to a friend. I don't really see an issue with using it for transaction though, I do it all the time.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
As I remember it the original intent for the F and F option was for a grandmother to send say $25 to a grandkid for their birthday or whatever. Sending someone $2,036.94 with the note Happy Birthday sort of violates the spirit of that intent I would think. I've given PP plenty of business both ways.
On it’s own, that sounds good...But I keep coming back to the (crystal-clear) last sentence below:
@MasonG said:
From PayPal's User Agreement:
Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family
The fees applicable to sending money can be found on our Fees for Sending Money to Friends and Family page and will be disclosed to you in advance each time you initiate a transaction to send money to a friend or family member. If you convert money in your Cash Account balance or in your business PayPal account balance from one currency to another before sending money, PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) will be used. If you use your credit card as the payment method when sending money, you may also be charged a cash-advance fee by your card issuer.
You can also use the send money feature in your PayPal account to pay for goods or services. You will not be charged any transaction fee for sending money to purchase goods or services as long as you choose the “send money to pay for goods and services” feature in your PayPal account. In that case, the seller will pay a fee. You must not use the “send money to a friend or family member” feature in your PayPal account when you are paying for goods or services.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I didn't see @MasonG 's second post. I only saw the abbreviated first post and thought that was the one being referenced. There is no ambiguity there and the rest of my argument, based on other PayPal pages, falls apart.
Let me clarify something about friends and family !
If I get a 1099 for any of the crap I sell that way I'll stop using it .
Until then bend over uncle SAM
It’s an interesting and confusing topic. Until I saw that post from MasonG, I was having a fierce ethical debate with myself. 😉 At this point, I hope no one posts a different paragraph from PayPal, which conflicts with that one.😬
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
“The ethical man knows he shouldn’t cheat on his taxes, whereas the moral man actually wouldn’t.”
Neither would the ethical one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This feels a lot like an “ethical dilemma” created at the “take-a-penny/leave-a-penny” at the gas station.
I really feel like PayPal has written the rules so that they are covered in any instance, but have no intent or desire to enforce what they’ve written (at least not at this moment). Their legal “you shall not” covers them in case of swindling between friends or non-friends.
They couldn’t leave it completely free and open as the Wild West because “business” could be transacted and PayPal be held liable for where the funds went and what they were for. They haven’t shut any gates, but put up clear “buyer/seller beware” language with the opportunity to have some PayPal assurance, for a fee.
In a book I like someone asked the teacher “then who is my neighbor?” And a pretty broad answer was given. I think the same (or similar, I’m probably stretching a bit here) can be applied to “Friends and Family” because PayPal just doesn’t want to get in trouble end offers a way for business transactions to stay more trouble-free (for a fee).
You may not like Paypal and consider them a large company that can afford fee free transactions that shouldn't be yet really , why allow Paypal or any other large corporation to formulate your own ethics?
It's like sneaking candy into a movie theater that prohibits it ("No Outside Food").
Live like your mom is looking over your shoulder!
Love how that sounds!
I think I saw it mentioned....and ignored....earlier in this thread that people CAN use "friends and family" and still voluntarily pay the fee......
I have done this, as a buyer, in the past....someone requested PPF&F (not even PP+fees) and I agreed to the purchase. When I made the purchase, I paid for it AND I chose, as part of the paypal process, to pay the fee. Seller never saw that...they just know that they asked for $300.00 and got $300.00
I paid the fee on my end. My choice.
If I ask for PPF&F, then it only means, to me, I want to NOT eat the fee myself. Pay me with regular PP and figure out the fee and add it on, or use PPF&F and pay the fee without me seeing it....I don't care. Up to the buyer to decide.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
When I use PayPal on the BST, unless it says the seller will take a payment without the fee, I pay the fee.
If we want to avoid the fee, we do a check. I understand the item will be shipped, after the check clears.
Although I prefer to do cash transactions, I don’t want to send cash through the mail, for obvious reasons.
When or if I decide to sell my coins, I will simplify matters, and include the PayPal fee in my asking price.
I have only recently started using PayPal, so I am new to all this.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
post all the signs you want , I'm bringing my own damn M & M's in I'm not paying 7 bucks for a piece of candy and a bottled water.
Anyone whose mom isn't stuffing their pockets with snacks before the movie wasn't brought up right.
And now y'all want to say taxes and morality belong in the same sentence.
If we had it to do over again , none of you bedwetters would have tossed those crates of tea in the harbor , would you?
Most theaters make their money based on concessions and not the movie itself. So, go ahead and steal. Teach your kids to steal too. Boomer.
I have buyers pay for domestic purchases with PayPal good and services. I often have foreign buyers pay with friends and family, as they are shipping their purchases to a known domestic address for consolidation and reshipment later.
There's a difference between ignoring/violating theater policy and stealing. Bringing and eating your own food amounts to the former, but not the latter.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
if your business model depends on idiots paying 20 bucks for popcorn then your demise is entirely predictable
it is peculiar to me to see even this small sampling of people in agreement with paying a fee to transfer money. this in an age when so many get upset about paying taxes, the rising cost of anything and who will gladly try to buy coins on the cheap whenever they can, but willingly pay to transfer money. I will bookmark this thread and in the future, if I sell anything via the BST, I will gladly charge the "red boxed" respondents an additional 3% because, hey, they don't mind paying it.
weird to say the least.
you think me putting something I own in my pocket is stealing?