Large price differences are not unique to CAC
Gazes
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Every once in awhile there is a post where someone is mystified about the price difference between a cac and non cac coin. I never understood this because this has always been the case regardless of CAC. I thought about this when looking at Peace dollar prices. A 1925-S is $525 in 64 and $27,500 in 65. A 1928-S is $1450 in 64+ and $16,500 in 65. Premiums for coins that are close in grade is not unique to CAC.
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I wonder what the premium would be for a 65 CAC for the above 2 coins.
Those coins are practically unicorns in 65. Kind of like the 1884-S $1 in any unc grade.
Collector, occasional seller
Are those coins known to be non-CAC or could they be CAC but not listed as such.
CAC has graded 7 1925-S peace dollars in 65. The price guide gives a price of $35,000 (a premium over the pcgs guide of around 7,500). The 1928-S has 8 stickered at 65 and a price guide of $24,200. My hunch is both would go for more than the cac price guide.
I understand your point and agree. Keep in mind that there are 46 1925-S in pcgs 65. The price jump from $500 to $24,000 is a big one for a single point (and i am not arguing its not justified).
My main point is that many who dont like cac complain that the coins go for a premium and its not worth the extra $. There was a thread about the 1914-d quarter eagle in pcgs 65 cac. That is a unicorn. Only 4 have stickered in 65. The price for a cac 65 is approaching 30,000. Without the sticker is probably around 12,000. This thread points out that huge price jumps are not exlusive to cac. People will always pay more (sometimes alot more) for the best.
You're comparing apples and oranges. A coin graded as X has a numerically equivalent label grade as X with CAC not X+1 or necessarily X+. Also, many coins with large CAC premiums do not have the large price differences between grades. You also discount sales where the same coin explodes in price once beaned. With this said, I do not doubt there can be an enormous range in value within grade. The question is whether the price of CACed coins is commensurate with increased quality. For some coins it is while for others it is not. The same coin in the same plastic shouldn't sell for many multiples once a foil sticker is added. At no point has the coin changed.
Now your just looking to argue. Really? You think it is perfectly reasonable that a 1925-S pcgs 64 sells for $525 and the 47 pcgs 1925-S sell for $27,000?? Yet you cant understand how a 1914-d quarter eagle is worth is worth $13,000 in pcgs 65 but one of only four certified cac by one of the top gold experts (ja) in the world goes for $28,000? It is essentially the same there is a huge premium when you get to cream of the crop whether it is one point by pcgs or a coin that is rare with JA's approval
The foil sticker is intended as a "seal of approval". That someone who most serious collectors respect looked at it in hand and said it's in the top ~50% of those at its grade. Is that worth the actual increase in price? Maybe not. Does that cause irrational "green bean" mania? Maybe, but it definitely adds value for prospective buyers who may not be as talented a grader as JA or may be buying online with only pics to judge from.
Here's an analogy for you: say you're looking at a slab of meat. It looks red and tender and nice. But there's no grade on it. Then the inspector comes and labels it as "grade A". Would you pay more for the steak then?
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I've never seen any Peace Dollar I would pay five figures for and think many of them are overpriced. To your point, a 65 would be expected to sell for more, perhaps substantially more, than a 64 because of the increased quality of the coin. The gold coin I had in mind doubled in value with the adding of a sticker. The coin was the same. The plastic and the label grade were even the same. That does not make sense to me. If the value of the same coin jumps from $13,000 to $28,000 because of a sticker then you basically have a $13,000 coin with a $15,000 sticker on it (of course this is a gross simplification as there are other variables as well, but you get the idea). I'm not sure why this is controversial.
Price guides are driven by sale prices. I'm wondering how many of those actual sales were of CAC coins but not indicated in the Price Guide?
Again you proved my point. There are many examples of the same coin being upgraded by a point or even a plus and going for huge amounts more than it was in the old holder. Again, my point is this is not unique to CAC.
Exactly. The coin is the same but the judgement of the "expert" examining it has changed its value. There are many ways this can happen, and a CAC bean is just one of those. This isn't even unique to coins, or steak. A restaurant gets a Michelin star and doubles its menu prices. A show dog wins a trophy and breeding fees double. An apt complex is reviewed as "top 10 places to live in _______" and raises its rent. This is how supply/demand works. If more people demand it for whatever reason, and there is the same supply, the price goes up. No controversy.
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It’s astounding. But if somebody has $50M plus in bank chump change.
I will defer to the buyers of that material. It’s their money / hobby.
What is a 5 br house in Cali - mansion w pool and tennis court on beach Carmel by the Sea worth? Like the one in that tv show Big Little Lies where that guy has the Pretty Blonde trophy wife to go with it. I am sure well worth it to him. Or did she win that from the divorce w 1st husband so super 2 in one deal for him?
If that was your sole point then the entire thread is a straw man argument. No one ever said CAC was the only source of over exuberant bids, but it is a contributing factor (cf. example above). The registry is another source as is the tendency of many collectors to treat coins like stocks or commodities.
Or perhaps (in the case of 1914-d quarter eagle) the coin is so superb that JA who has seen thousands of indian QEs and only stickered 4 1914-d thought this coin was so solid or strong cac stickered it. Given his expertise the price makes sense if someone wants one of the best coins for that date. Again, many coins get upgraded and the buyer with the great eye can be rewarded handsomely as was the case for the 1914-d or any coin resubmitted to a tpg.
I will tend to side with JA if given his expertise with gold that the 1914-d is so superb that it is one of the few to get a sticker in gem and should be valued as one of the finest in the world as opposed to your opinion. No offense---i would take JA's opinion over mine as well.
That's fine, but the coin sold at major public auction where dozens of experts, including JA and crew, had the opportunity to bid on it but apparently thought it was a low five figure coin. The fact that JA has now publicly announced his opinion does not more than double the value.
Here we go again, another CAC thread, it has been too long........ Let's reach at least 500 posts!
I know nothing about gold QEs but @gazes makes an interesting point. There are only 4 that have stickered in green (and 0 in gold). There are 32 graded MS65 by PCGS. Lets say there's another 32 in NGC holders. So only 4/64 or 6% have earned the green bean. That seems bizarre because supposedly green beans are awarded to roughly the top 50% of the grade. Are we to think that only 8 have ever been submitted to CAC? Or that certain coins like this one have to meet a much higher standard to earn the bean? If a greenie really means your QE is in the top 6% of the grade then I definitely can see why the huge price jump!
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I'd advise not to compare gold metal bean rate with other metal bean rates. The gold metal standard appears more strict or that there are more messed with gold coins than silver.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The January Collector's choice auction is a major auction? Lol. Sorry, the market determines the price and that coin is worth 25k plus.
It wasn't the first time apparently. Yes I consider the auction houses (Stacks-Bowers and Heritage) to both be major auction houses.
Of course Stacks is a major auction house. You said the coin sold at a"major public auction". It wasnt a major public auction.
Did it have lot viewing?
What boxing round are we in?
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Lol. You stick with the jan collectors choice auction was a major auction.
Call it whatever you want. If it is a public sale with lot viewing by a major auction house, it is very unlikely that a coin would slip by so undervalued. While the final price realized is likely multifactorial, it would be naive to think that the sticker wasn't implicated in a good chunk (if not the majority) of the $15,000 increase. During the short time between sales, the market declined. And there are other examples. I wish I had the time to search for many more like it. With sufficient sample size, perhaps we could run a regression analysis to estimate CAC's effect size.
It's so close to Christmas. It's like an early Christmas present in October!
1.) Price guides are worthless. Price guides make broad assumptions and average sales for coins that may not really be comps.
2.) Who compiled this price guide? (Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it Laura? If so there appears to be a conflict of interest and obvious bias. One's dream sales price does not constitute market value. Moreover she let Bruce bid $10m on a coin largely for show based on rumors and a couple of other collectors with potentially unrealistic valuations refusing to sell theirs. I've also heard her make the incredible claim that if an example hasn't been sold in a long time that the price necessarily always increases. Maybe examples aren't appearing because everyone has been hoping to wait out the 10+ year free fall. And when coins do reappear, a number of them have declined. I don't trust her pricing valuations unless backed up by hard data.)