Authenticating/Identifying Partial-Dated Coins Based on Submission Date
airplanenut
Posts: 22,362 ✭✭✭✭✭
@ErrorsOnCoins posted this image in a different thread:
On this coin, the second 0 in the date is partially visible, so the coin can be identified as 2020, but it got me thinking. Suppose the date were just a bit more obscured, and it was clearly 202X, but X is completely unknown. Submitted this year, I'd think the coin could be identified positively as 2020 as there are no other 202X dates it could be. As soon as 2021 cents are produced (assuming no die markers specific to 2020 exist), the coin forevermore has an unknown date.
My questions are as follows: First, do the grading service operate with my line of thinking? Second, if they do, are there internal notes so they can remember in the future how they identified the coin? Obviously if it's cracked out, the date information is lost (unless the sniffer or some photo can positively identify it), but if it's regraded/reholdered in the future, it would certainly be helpful from my perspective if the graders could see a note that said "submitted in 2020, could not be any other date" versus accepting that they previously called the coin 2020, even if they no longer know why. Lastly, in a case like this, do the grading services honor each others' assessments (would an NGC coin cross to PCGS or vice versa in 2025), or would the new service say they can't independently identify the date, so they won't declare the coin a 2020.
Comments
I plan to submit the above coin very soon so hopefully, I will get 2020 on the label. I emailed NGC about that exact thing, unfortunately, they never got back to me
I will call soon.
I think they will as they dated a slabbed blank planchet that I own.
But on your coin I think you can see enough of the date to positively identify it as 2020, even next year.
I did send this coin to ANACS years ago (the photo is 16 years old, so it was probably submitted around 2004). They did grade it with a date (1973, if I recall correctly) based on some reverse die markers that are unique to 1973. This is what was in mind when I mentioned the loophole of something other than the date identifying the coin.
I do not think they spend the time on die markers anymore to date a coin. Fred may have more knowledge about what PCGS does.
I was told that there are reverse die markers on this coin for a date that can be determined but I forgot the date, perhaps 1972???
Shouldn’t the identification of a coin be based on its appearance, not its submission date? For example, it wouldn’t seem quite right to attribute a 202- cent submitted now, as a 2020, but to decline to do so for the same coin if it were submitted a year or two later.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Except for the FACT that this coin could ONLY be a 2020 if I submitted it next week.
That was part of my point. If you were to submit the same coin in two years, you’d get a different result. And I think that might present a problem with attributing it as a 2020, now.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Obviously, I do have a concern on if they date this or not.
Right now it is a fact that it is 2020.
I am not sure a phone call would clear this up.
PCGS or NGC ?
Fred, what would you do if you have control over the date?
PCGS Customer support, what would you date this coin if submitted next week?
You answer my change my plans.
The one problem with selling such a coin in, say, 2030 is that the TPGs offer no visibility into when a coin was processed, even though it's fairly easy to come close. You'd be better off with a dated, notarized photo, in case a buyer were to think that there was a mechanical error in play dating the coin.
The coin in question is obviously enough 2020 by virtue of the last digit being barely visible.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Not quite the same, but consider First Strike coins. If you submit the coin within 30 days of release, it must be First Strike, and PCGS will designate it as such. After 30 days and it has to be submitted in its sealed packaging. Imagine a scenario where you took the 202X coin and sealed it in a package that was totally sealed/postmarked in 2020. I don't know if PCGS would accept that, but it would be a way to prove the coin existed in 2020 and must be dated 2020. If you submit that First Strike coin out of its packaging, the result is different based on when you send it in.
To me, at least, a different result for a designation is very different from that of attributing (or not attributing) a coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's why I started by saying they're not the same. My point is that PCGS has a scenario already where the overall attribution of the coin (everything but the grade) is dependent on submission time. And while the attribution itself (and its importance) is different, both times they're based on something you can positively know at one submission time, but not positively know at a different time.
If that coin was submitted as a mint error and I saw it before December 31 , I would label it as a 2020 date because it cannot be anything else but minted in 2020. After January 1 in theory it could be also be struck in 2021, and so on into the future
Fred's answer is common sense.
A 202x slabbed this year is a 2020. Submitted after this year it is 202x.
Same thing for a new coin design or denomination. For example, a Golden Dollar planchet, or any coin or planchet with a partial Sacagewea design submitted in 2000 was dateable as 2000.
Any future designation during reslabbing is at the mercy of the TPG.
I have a WTC Recovery coin and I asked a PCGS rep at a show if it could be reslabbed and he said I'd lose the special label/designation. So, you never know.
Labels can also be different because sometimes those are made with a limited run, so if you reholder/regrade a coin, there isn't a way for them to make the special label again.
Unrelated: assuming your username is your initials, they could not be better!
Ok what about labeling it as?:
202X (0) or 202X
*X=0, submitted: 9-13-20
I like it, but some people who don't understand algebra will get mighty confused.
Sorry all for getting off topic, but wanted to address.
@JBK I had same situation. But they were able to take it back to the office to be reslabbed with the flag label/WTC attribution. Can’t remember if it was a new label or they just reused the same label, but the end result was the same. I’d try again. This wasn’t that long ago.
Thx for the information. That is very good to know.
In my case the slab is OK but the Peruvian (?) silver coin inside is rotated badly. I will try the tapping or electric toothbrush routine first, but otherwise I might look to your solution.
The 1973 cents (from all mints) have a unique reverse design (RDV-003) that was not used on any other date. Most of the design differences are subtle, but the one that really stands out is the giant (relatively speaking) FG initials to the right of the Memorial Building. So you can indeed identify a 1973 cent from the reverse design, with the caveat that if the mintmark region didn't strike up, there is no way to tell whether it is P, D, or S-minted.
That's great that you got the date listed on your slab. Generally speaking, I would not take it for granted that the TPGs will do this. If you have a dateless coin but know the date because of the design, be sure to submit that information with the coin - otherwise, they may not catch it.
Your coin has ODV-007 paired with RDV-003, which rules out 1971 and 1972. Your coin could be a 1973, 1974, 1977 or 1978 - based on the designs, it is not possible to narrow it down any further, in this case.
Edit: However, a hypothetical coin showing the same regions as your coin could be definitively dated to 1972 if it was a 1972 Type 2 (RDV-002) or a 1972 Type 3 (RDV-003). Both of these coins would have ODV-001 (the low relief obverse of 1971/1972). Such a coin could also be dated to 1971-D if it was a Friendly Eagle Variety.
Can you be a little more clear, I am not sure which sentence is correct?
Also, this coin should probably be paired up with the dates that the US mint produced dollar planchets for Taiwan.
Thank you, Fred, Most likely you will see this coin before the end of the year
The first sentence applies to your coin, specifically. Based on the obverse and reverse designs, it could be a 1973, 1974, 1977, or 1978.
What I meant in the second sentence is that a hypothetical coin - showing the same regions as yours - could be dated specifically to 1972 if it happened to be a 1972 Type 2 or a 1972 Type 3. Hypothetically, you could also date such a coin to 1971-D if it was a Friendly Eagle Variety.
According to the first document below, Yuan and 5 Yuan coins were minted by the US Mint for Taiwan only in 1973. Dollar coins are not specified. The second document indicates the US mint struck coins for Taiwan in 1973 and 1974.
Is there any definitive reference for foreign coins struck at the US mint? I had been wondering about this, myself.
https://libertycoinservice.com/wp-content/uploads/learning-center/collectors-checklist-foreign-coins-by-us-mint-type.pdf
http://www.moneta-coins.com/library/Foreign Coins Struck at the US Mint - Ziebarth on Liberia.pdf
IkesT .... Thank you for the clarification and your information.
I have seen a list of all the Foreign planchets produced by the US Mint, But I can no longer locate it. I know the Taiwan Dollar planchet dates were on the list.
You're welcome, ErrorsOnCoins. I found a document at the address below that appears to have the required information. Unfortunately, I have no idea who made this spreadsheet or where it originally came from:
http://numispedia.org/dump/Foreign-Coinage-Production-Figures.xls
It appears that the Taiwan 1 dollar coins were minted in 1973 and 1974 in Denver (rows highlighted by me in dark yellow, below). As you can see, the denomination was left blank for 1974, but the other fields match the values listed for 1 dollar in 1973. Hopefully, you can eventually confirm the information independently with a verified source.
IkeT, yes that is the spreadsheet that Mike Diamond gave me.
I think Fred uses it as well.
No idea who put it together tho.
Very nice - at least that narrows your coin down to 1973-D to 1974-D!
In cases like this, where the date isn't exactly known, but can be narrowed down to a range of dates, it seems to me I've seen NGC-slabbed coins where the date range is listed on the label. Has anyone seen this on a PCGS label?
Now that I think about it, I think I was told this is a 1974 D by the reverse die markers. I do not have the time to research it tho.
On a side note, I went to print the above document until it showed that I would be printing 100 pages
I saved a digital copy
There is nothing wrong with a grading service using the best available information at their disposal at the time of grading. If the above (missing zero) cent was sent in today it is obviously a 2020 and should be dated as such. If sent in a few years from now (assuming there was no opportunity to distinguish the last date digit) it should not receive a date of 2020. It is right that today PCGS knows yet would not be certain years from now. No reason to punish the coin based on some arbitrary "that wouldn't be quite right" response.
Please allow logic to overcome emotion.
Well, I'm not aware of reverse die markers that would distinguish between a 1973-D and 1974-D. Both have the Type 3 reverse design (RDV-003), although it's possible unique die markers could pop up here and there on the master dies. I'd have to know what they were referring to.
Interesting topic. Kind of like finding a mint error 2021-dated coin in 2020. What would you do, besides act fast?
Lance.