Options
Players with the most season MVP awards
coolstanley
Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky - 9
Baseball - Barry Bonds - 7
Basketball - Kareem Abdul Jabbar - 6
Football - Peyton Manning - 5
*Gordie Howe won the award in Hockey 6 times
*Gretzky won the award 8 consecutive years
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
0
Comments
It’s suprised me to see that Jordan didn’t have more than Kareem. I Knew about the other three though
I was too a little surprised it wasn't Jordan, or Lebron.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I actually didn't realize Gretzky had won it 9 times, and 8 consecutive years.
Me neither. Winning it 8 consecutive years is both amazing, and mind boggling. I don't know a lot about Hockey. Was he just too fast for everyone else? Was the rest of the league just too slow to stop him in the 80's?
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I don't know much about hockey either, but I think it had to be his scoring ability. He was just a ridiculous scoring machine. I think he also led the Edmonton Oilers to four stanley cups.
Gretzky wasn't the biggest or fastest player. He was the most accurate passer and shooter I have ever seen. He seemed to always know where to attack the defenses weakest point.
It was also said that when observing the players when they returned to the bench after a shift, he recovered more quickly than anyone else, so I assume he had more stamina than other players.
Other things certainly helped. He played on a great team built for a time when offense was encouraged by the rules of the game.
In baseball, look into the stats from 1952 through 1964.
Mickey Mantle might not have been a clear winner in the examples below, but certainly_ could _have won the MVP.
1952 should have won. Best position player. Finished behind two pitchers. #1
1953 Al Rosen won it and deserved it.
1954 Berra wins. Minoso had higher WAR, but Mantle had much higher OPS, Williams played in only 117 games. #2
1955 Mantle clear winner here. Highest WAR and #2 in OPS to Williams, who played in only 98 games. #3
1956 Won it by a MILE! #4
1957 Won it, but what a year for Ted! #5
1958 No sane person picks Jensen over Mantle. Williams has another great year. Mickey dominates in WAR. #6
1959 Nellie Fox wins it with a lower WAR and a .770 OPS. Mantle #1 in WAR and #1 in OPS+. #7
1960 Very close year as Maris wins. Mantle plays in more games with a higher OPS+ #8
1961 Maris wins again setting the HR record but Mantle is better and it's not that close. #9
1962 Won it and deserved it. #10
1963 Headed for another MVP, but gets injured and plays in only 65 games.
1964 Brooksie has his best hitting year and is #1 in WAR, but Mantle far superior in OPS. #11
Mickey had the highest OPS+ (except 1957 when he won the MVP anyway) every season from 1955 until 1964. He didn't qualify in 1963, but he was still the highest.
In offensive WAR he was 2nd in 1952, 3rd in 1953, 2nd in 1954 and 1st every year from 1955 until 1964.
If he doesn't get hurt in 1963 he could have won 12 MVP awards.
Gretzky was never the fastest guy. He was fairly fast but not world class. Not even close to the fastest guy on his own team let alone the entire league. He didn't have the hardest shot. What he did have was unreal vision and anticipation. And he was, by far, the best passer of all-time. He rolled up a ton of points just from assists. One year, he averaged over 2 assists a game - no one else has ever averaged even 1.5 per game for an 80-game season. The top 7 seasons for assists are all his. As are the 8th (tie), 10th, and 11th. So, of the top 11 seasons for assists, he's got 10 of them.
It was kind of a perfect storm - he played on a team that prioritized offense over defense, with a roster full of offensive studs, in an era where they played very little defense. The result was he put up ridiculous numbers while also winning. A LOT. Thus, 8 straight MVPs.
Team mate Paul Coffey could skate circles around Gretzky. But, Wayne always knew where the puck was going or should go before anyone else. Unreal
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Here is a twist. Roger clemens won the pitchers version of MVP 7 times in addition to 1 league MVP for a total of 8 major yearly awards. Does that Trump Bonds 7 mvp awards? I think it does.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don't know about Clemens, but Bonds is the opposite of Mantle, doesn't deserve as many as he got.
IF Clemens was clean, quite possibly the GOAT pitcher. However I don't equate a Cy Young with an MVP. You would have to look at all the numbers. Many more position players having great years than pitchers dominating their hurling peers.
NOT going to debate cheating again.
Just my opinion.
In several of these years, as you noted, Mantle was absolutely robbed, especially 1955, 1958, and 1961. And you're right that he COULD have won it in every year you say, but I would have voted for someone else in at least a few of those years.
1952 - Larry Doby got reamed in the MVP vote (came in 12th), but he was a stud that year.
1954 - Berra would have gotten my vote. In the history of baseball, no catcher has ever been the best hitter in his league, but if you give them the credit they deserve for their defense - the reason WHY they are never the best hitters - they are sometimes the best overall players.
1959 - I'd have voted for Fox; awesome SS, played every game, and hit well enough
1964 - I'd have voted for Robinson; same reasons as Fox
So, no question that Mantle should have at least 7 MVPs, but that's as high as I'd go.
Bonds could've won it more than 7 times.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Joe Mauer was the best hitter in the AL in 2009. Led in average, OBP, SLG, OPS, OPS+, and offensive WAR.
Once again, everyone’s like...
Michael Jordan and LeBron James rank above Kareem for GOAT despite the fact that Kareem was more dominant, had more MVPs, scored more points and won 6 NBA titles.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Prolly deserved 3 at the absolute most.
Cy Young awards exist because a pitcher should (almost?) never win an MVP. Playing in only 20-25% of games, and rarely full ones then, should be an automatic disqualifier.
Doby had a fine year. Looks very similar to Mantle's but Mickey was a little better?
This is true and Berra was probably more "valuable" because of what you said. Still Mantle had a higher WAR and OPS. I will not argue too hard here.
Fox played 2B. Face it, he won because the White Sox won the pennant. His OPS+ was 114 to Mickey's 151. Mantle beat him in WAR as well.
I really liked Brooks as a player. His defense was stellar and he had a very good year hitting that year and played in every game. I'm assuming the writers were hoping for a year like that from him so they could give him the MVP. Mickey missed 20 games. He beat Brooks by 32 points in OPS+ Do you think Robinson made that up at 3rd base? He had a lot more chances, (about 270 more) and that IS a lot. Mickey's team had a couple guys who were good that year in Maris and Howard, but Mickey was the leader in hitting by far and his team won the pennant. Robinson wasn't the best hitter on his team, that was Powell. I will agree that Mantle wasn't going to win it in BOTH 1959 AND 1964, but he should have gotten one of them. I would lean towards 1959 even though the Yankees had an off year
Your reasoning is sound, but I would go with 9 or 10.
Brain fart on my part - of course Fox played 2B.
There is one stat that you're not looking at - Win Probability Added; like the others, it has its flaws, but when added to the others it does help fill out the picture. In 1959, the AL leaders in WPA were:
.
.
.
Mantle came in 10th.
>
So while Fox wasn't putting up the stats Mantle was, he was getting his hits when they counted. With the bases empty, Fox had an OPS of .659, but with RISP his OPS was 1.022. A difference of that magnitude is unheard of, and while the WPA stat didn't even exist in 1959, I have to think the sportswriters noticed that Fox was a different hitter with men on base. Mantle, by the way, had an OPS of .872 with the bases empty, but dropped a little to .855 with RISP. No disrespect to Mantle who certainly COULD have won the MVP that year, but I'd have voted for Fox.
I'd repeat the same exercise for Robinson in 1964, but I can't; Mantle led the AL in WPA that year, although Robinson was 4th. But this was 1964, and Mantle's legs were, if not gone, in the process of packing up to leave. He was no longer stealing bases, and he was no longer playing CF well (he was pretty damn awful that year in fact). So yes, Robinson makes up a ton of ground on Mantle playing 3B exceptionally well. Again, Mantle certainly COULD have won the MVP that year, but I'd have voted for Robinson.
For 1952 and 1954, I won't try to defend statistically my choices, and I certainly won't say a vote for Mantle in either year would have been wrong. I agree that Mantle and Doby had about the same season at the plate; I'd have voted for Doby with fielding as a slim tie-breaker. And I'd vote for a catcher most any time they had a plausible case, which is rarely enough as it is. Berra's 1955 MVP is just silly, but he's close enough in 1954 to get my vote.
All good points.
I especially liked how you pointed out Francona's accomplishments. Great season, too bad he didn't have a few more at bats.
It does look like Fox had an amazingly "clutch" year, but it doesn't look like his great hitting with RISP surpassed Mantles power as he drove in less runs in 84 more AB. I am sure Fox had a LOT less ABs with RISP, so it would take fewer hits in those situations to have good numbers and yet drive in less runs. Fox did have a good year hitting doubles. Of course Mantles HR advantage is huge, especially if he hits one with no one on or a guy only on 1B.
I am not as comfortable with the "advanced" stats as you are. I do like to look at the bottom of the "Batting Leaders" page on Baseball Reference, and yes, Mantle was below Fox in WPA, but above him in Base-Out Runs Added, Situ. Wins Added (WPA/LI) and Base-Out Wins Added (REW), Fox doesn't even show up in the top 10 in those three categories.
Mantle was also the better base stealer. Of course Mantle dominates Fox in SLG and OPS and even scored more runs that year.
I think the writers liked giving the MVP to a deserving player on a pennant winning team Fox certainly qualified. I also think the writers were "tired" of giving it to Mantle after 1956 and 1957. That would explain to me why he didn't win in 1958, they didn't want to give it to him three years in a row.
Fox's year was really great, so I can't put up much of an argument IF being on a pennant winner is a factor.
Moving up to 1964 I think has a LOT of similarities except that Mantle was on the Pennant winner. I think Robinson was right there with Mantle in some areas, better in some and not as good in others and was so well liked by the writers, they gave it to him. Mantle almost got no 1st place votes. It should have been closer than that.
I would agree that Robinson "deserved" it that year. Personally, I never like the fact that the award always seemed to go to a guy on a good team. My thinking is that if he has so many good team mates he's less valuable to the team than if he's the only great player.
Good discussion. Mantle might not have deserved all the MVP's I asked for, but he deserved more than he got.
On to Ted Williams!!!!!!
I'm just arguing my own personal hypothetical vote; on a "what was the real reason?" basis, I think what you said here is probably right.
All the great players came up short on MVPs, probably from the "tired" feeling you mentioned. Williams, Musial, and Mays won 8 MVPs between them, but probably deserved 15 to 20.
1941 Ted batted .406 and was #1 in WAR. Lost to Dimaggio and his streak. Very close. JD was a superior defender.
1942 Ted won the Triple Crown and #1 in WAR lost to Joe Gordon NO WAY!
1943,44,45 in military.
1946 Finally wins it.
1947 another Triple Crown another finish behind Dimaggio. Complete joke this time. Ted was better.
1948 Boudreau not as good a hitter, but has an awesome year. Ted was a solid 2nd.
1949 Wins again. Should be #5 and who knows what he would have done1943-46.
1950 Hits 28 HR and drives in 97 in only 89 games Slugs .647
1951 13th place? WTF? MAYBE 2nd behind Berra. What a joke.
1952-53 Military again. Look at what he did in 37 games in 1953!!!!!
1954 117 games hurts him. The BEST hitter regardless. Doby should have beat Berra, but Ted was the best!
1955 98 games slugs .703.
1956 Who is this Mantle guy?
1957 Mantle again, Ted hits .388 and slugs .731 and can't win!
1958 Best hitter, should have been #2 behind Mantle
1959 Teds only bad year.
1960 Again the best hitter in the league plays in only 113 games
Williams is REALLY hurt by missing time in the Military but also by missing time in 1950. 1954 and 1960 when he was the best hitter.
Ted deserves 5-6 with a few second place finishes. Was the best hitter every year from 1941-60 except for 1956.
Just missed too many games.
Just took a quick look at Musial, he got robbed a few times. Mays as well.
Its unbelievable that Williams lost out on two MVP's when he had the triple crown.
Williams also got robbed in 1957.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
I'm with you on the Triple Crown years, but Mantle was the clear MVP in 1957. By 1957, Williams had started sitting out against LH pitching; that's why he missed many more games than Mantle, and why he had better averages, but lost to Mantle at all the (meaningful) cumulative stats. Williams had also become an immobile LF who couldn't run the bases while Mantle was playing CF well and among the fastest players in the league. By the Win Shares method (Bill James) Mantle's 1957 season was the best season by any player since Ruth in 1923 to be achieved without cheating.
We will agree to disagree. Both players had over 400 AB's. I would've voted for Williams. He hit more home runs, and led the league in average(hit close to 390), OBP, slugging %, OPS, and OPS+, and IBB. Seems like the clear winner to me.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Yes, as I said, he led the league in all sorts of averages. But you simply ignored the reason why he did. Williams hit .408 against righties and .323 against lefties; he hit a HR every 9 ABs against righties and every 18 ABs against lefties. And the reason his AB total that year was low, and his averages were so high, was that he sat out against a lot of lefties.
Had Mickey Mantle dodged 15 or so games against pitchers he didn't want to face he would have beaten Williams in all or nearly all of the average stats. You are penalizing Mantle for facing tough pitchers and rewarding Williams for dodging them. Which of those things do you think MVPs ought to do?
In any event, the "over 400 AB" rule simply doesn't fly. There is no value in sitting on the bench, and players who play more often have more value, all else equal. In 1957, Mantle came to bat 86 more times (16%) than Williams and played 236 more innings (24%) in the field than Williams. Take into account that Mantle played CF well and Williams played LF poorly, that Mantle was a great baserunner and Williams a terrible baserunner, and add that to the 20% of the season that Williams missed relative to Mantle, and you have one the greatest gaps from the best to second-best player in the league in history.
Not buying those arguments. The only way a player can lead a stat for a season is to have a certain number of AB's that qualifies to be the leader in that stat. You have to make the cut off. There have been players who won the MVP playing in alot less games and AB's than Williams did in 1957.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Your position - that a player who bats .300 for 502 plate appearances against RH pitching and runs and hides from LH pitching, is better than a player who bats .310 for 502 plate appearances against RH pitching, and .275 for 200 plate appearances against LH pitching is too silly to take seriously. That you don't recognize that it is silly - that you don't even recognize that this is the argument that you are making - goes past silly to sad.
1957 was the best season in Mantle's career and a serious argument can be made that it was the best season any player ever had. Either of those propositions are worthy of debate; that Mantle was the MVP of one league for that one year is so obvious that it can't really be debated. I pointed out information that I assumed you had overlooked, but there's no more I can do.
I think Williams was a lot closer to Mantle in 1957 in a MVP "way", Mantle was certainly the better all-around player, but hitting .388 and slugging .731 are pretty impressive. Ted had exactly one hitter on his team, Jackie Jensen, with an OPS+ over 100. Mantle had four, so Ted was "more valuable". I could certainly see Williams winning it.
1957 a better year for the Mick than 1956? Not in a million years. The only thing he did better in 1957 was take more walks.
In 29 more plate appearances than 1957 Mantle had 18 more HR (6 less 2B) and 61 more TB.
Williams 57 season was better than Mantle's 57 season. Williams became the first player in American League history that year with multiple three-homer games in the same season. And his 1.257 OPS ranks in the top 10 best in any season all-time. Mantle admitted himself he thought that Williams would win the MVP that year, and was shocked that he didn't. Mantle's words - "I thought Williams would get it for sure. I didn't think I'd get it.''
The reason Williams lost is because one writer gave Williams only a ninth place vote, and another gave him a 10th place vote. Which is ludicrous.
Since a first place vote was worth 14 points and a 10th place vote was worth only one point, Mantle finished ahead of Williams.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Good points.
How about this? If Williams had gotten just 5 more hits, he would have hit .400 and slugged over .730 with an OB% of over .526 all at the age of 38!
One more hit a month and he hits .400!
LOL he could have hit .400 twice and won the Triple Crown twice and not won a MVP in any of those years!
I wish someone would at least acknowledge that Williams was dodging lefties that year. Say you don't mind if you don't, tell me how Ken Phelps was the greatest slugger of the late 80's while you're at it, but stop just pretending it didn't happen. It happened, and arguments on behalf of Williams that ignore it are really getting annoying.
Mantle's best season was 1957, and every comprehensive measurement captures it (WAR, oWAR, Win Shares, WPA, Batter Runs, etc.). One big piece of it is that offense in the AL dropped from 4.6 runs per game in 1956 to 4.2 runs per game in 1957. I don't know why it happened, but it happened to every single team in the league so it wasn't just a fluke. It stayed at 4.2 runs per game in 1958 and didn't get as high as 4.6 again until 1979. One thing I will say is that Mantle's 1956 season, while a small step below his 1957 season, was also better than Williams' 1957 season.
Not sure I buy the idea that Williams was ducking lefties that year. He played in 132 games. He missed 14 straight games in September due to injury. He missed 8 other games all year. He put up a .997 OPS against lefties all year, 1.078 against lefty starters. Basically, he got a few days off during the year, not at all surprising for a guy who turned 39 during the season.
As for Mantle's 1957, I get that WAR pegs that year as his best. And this is a case where WAR just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. He hit 35% fewer homers, had fewer hits, 16% fewer total bases, slugged .040 lower, played fewer games, scored fewer runs and so on. The only real area of improvement was walks. OK, fine. Walks are important and he ended up reaching based over half the time as a result. But the gigantic difference in power output from 56 to 57 more than offset the walks. The only reason his 1957 looks so good to WAR is because so many of his contemporaries dropped off in 1957 for whatever reason. He had a great season, a really great season in comparison to his peers, but not his best season. IMHO, of course.
I don't know either if he ducked lefties or not. Maybe he did. At the end of the year he was a better hitter than Mantle (certainly not a better athlete at 38, or ever probably).
I just can't believe there is an argument there to be had.
Walks are important, but to me they make a guy look like a better hitter sometimes. That's why I put more weight on SLG it's a pure hitting number. BA, OPB and OPS and the + are all changed by the walk, and rightly so. The only reason Mantle was close to Williams in OPS was because of his walks. When one player has a higher BA, OBP and OPS and walks LESS than the other, he is a superior hitter.
I see the MVP debate, and either guy would be acceptable. Mantle's team won the pennant (like every other year) and Ted was the most "valuable" player on a third place team. For years the MVP went to a player on a pennant winner. It obviously cost Williams before, at least this time it was closer.
As far as Mantle's 1957 being better than his 1956, I have my problems with numbers that make that look possible. You start comparing things like how everybody else did to say Mick did better in 57 than 56? A couple of guys retire, a couple of guys get hurt a couple of pitchers have one in a lifetime years and it changes what a guy actually did?
No way on earth is Mantle's 1957 a better year than 1956. Mantle was a "power" hitter, when he hits for less power and walks more that is a victory for the opponent. Especially when you notice he scored less runs despite having a higher OBP.
I have read quite a few articles about Williams amazing 1957 season. Not one of them mentioned he dodged left handed pitchers.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Post of the week. I couldn't agree more with everything above.
No doubt Williams was hurt by the team he played on. The Red Sox were just not very good in the 50's. The Yankees had great teams and it benefited Mantle. I can see the case for Mantle in 57. Awesome incredible year. I just think imo Williams deserved it more. The fact that Mantle was surprised Ted didn't win it, tells me that Mantle himself thought that Williams had an incredible year. Especially at his age.(38-39)
Tabe and Dallas - Great well written posts as well.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
Nice run 1984-88. Too bad he never got even 350 AB in a season.
Too bad? You're just f***in' with me now, right?
Not this time. I remember him. Great hitter.
What I meant was, you do know why he never got even 350 AB in a season, right? He was a great hitter, as long as the pitcher was a righty; he was Mario Mendoza against lefties.
If you look at Ken Phelps and see a player with a 149 OPS+ from 1984-1988, you're not seeing the whole picture.
No I wasn't seeing the whole picture. Just not going to look too hard at a guy with that short of a career.
149 OPS+ even against just righties is pretty impressive!
@JoeBanzai
@dallasactuary
I think some MVP awards don’t make as much sense unless you saw the season. There was at least one that comes to mind - Dustin Pedroia - where a look at the stats might indicate other candidates but seeing the season may have made a difference.
I wonder if Rizzuto or Joe Gordon or other similar MVPs have been similarly victimized.
I don’t know, mind you. I just wonder.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
I think it comes down to your mindset. Are you voting for player with the "best" season, best season on a good (pennant/division winner) team, or voting AGAINST a player for some reason.
In the case of Joe Gordon, I am sure he had a wonderful season, but I think that year (and a couple of others as well) some of the voters made sure their vote would keep Williams from winning. He had a bad relationship with most of the sportswriters. They simply did it to get even.
Perhaps but Michael Jordan was arguably the best player with the best stats on the winningest team quite often yet Karl Malone and Charles Barkley also took down MVPs. Sometimes, seeing the games matters is all I’m saying.
Also, with respect to 1957, having a ‘better year’ requires more than just better stats at the dish. It’s why DHs have long been ignored as MVP - right or wrong - because you can also help your team tremendously in the field. That is something Teddy Ballgame failed to do for most of his storied baseball career.
Defense matters.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
MVP awards are opinions and personal feelings towards said player/s, for you hardcore baseball guys I always wondered why Campanella won it over Snider in 1955?
You could have given it to Jordan every year. I don't think the writers like to do that.
Well, I was born in 1957, so I didn't see any of those games.
Again, depending on your mindset. Are awarding it to the best player or the most valuable? Williams made a much bigger difference to his team than Mantle, maybe. I can't really get into a good debate about it, because the writers didn't seem to all be on the same page. I think both Williams and Mantle "lost" MVP's because writers voted them way lower than they "deserved" or left them off their ballot altogether.
On the Ted Williams playing defense subject. I think he gets downgraded a bit because early in his career he was seen practicing his swing in the outfield and the writers went nuts about it. He was no Willie Mays, that's for sure, but he was ok out there. Mantle gets a little more credit than he deserves (IMO) because of his speed. Being fast doesn't automatically mean your a great defender. I am sure Mickey was more valuable on defense. Yawn, defense. Where the MVP is concerned anyway. ;-)
In the early 1990's someone told me that if we are talking about "valuable" Kirby Puckett should have won a bunch of MVP's. The Twins had some nice players, but Puckett was a huge factor as a player and a leader, yet never won a regular season MVP.