1913 Liberty Nickel Pedigrees

Zoins · July 3, 2020 9:19AM

I noticed that the PCGS CoinFacts provenance for the Eliasberg specimens ends at Parino, so I thought I'd add more here. The following is a combination of info on CoinFacts and LibertyNickels.org.

Would be great to an update on CoinFacts.

Eliasberg specimen

Samuel W. Brown (employed at the mint from 1903 to November 1913)
August Wagner (who advertised the five 1913 Liberty Nickels for sale in The Numismatist in late 1923 and early 1924)
Stephen K. Nagy (possibly a Wagner accomplice)
Wayte Raymond (either as owner or broker)
Col. E.H.R. Green Collection (Green purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from Wayte Raymond circa 1924-1926)
Burdette G. Johnson & Eric P. Newman (who purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from the Green estates for $2,000 in December 1941 - this is the piece Newman selected as the one to keep for his personal collection)
Kosoff and Kriesberg, and sold to Louis Eliasberg.
Louis Edward Eliasberg, Sr. Collection - Bowers & Merena 5/1996:807, $1,485,000 (the first U.S. coin to sell for over $1,000,000)
Jay Parino - Superior 3/2001:728 (as NGC PR66), $1,840,000 - subsequently graded PCGS PR66
Dwight Manley
Edward C. Lee
Bruce Morelan
Dr. Morton-Smith
Bruce Morelan, Gerald Forsythe
Gerald Forsythe
Bruce Morelan

References:

Here's the TrueView for the Louis Edward Eliasberg, Sr specimen:

1northcoin · July 3, 2020 9:23AM

That raises an interesting question. Dealers who acquire such a coin for the purpose of reselling, are they legitimately part of the pedigree? I can see arguments both ways.

Zoins · July 3, 2020 9:25AM

@1northcoin said:
That raises an interesting question. Dealers who acquire such a coin for the purpose of reselling, are they legitimately part of the pedigree? I can see arguments both ways.

I think it's useful to include because they also have personal recollections and experience with the coins. The best of both worlds is to include them but indicate dealers vs. collectors.

The interesting thing is that a dealer can also be a collector, so it's useful to note inventory vs. personal collection. For example, I've picked up a few pieces from the personal collections of dealers and I think that's a bit different than buying from inventory.

tokenpro · July 3, 2020 6:14PM

I'm still on the hunt for #5:

(I dropped #4 on the floor & haven't had time to look for it as yet).

BStrauss3 · July 3, 2020 6:28PM

You can buy a whole roll of them on Ali!

dbldie55 · July 3, 2020 6:49PM

Here are three of mine.

MFeld · July 3, 2020 6:50PM

@1northcoin said:
That raises an interesting question. Dealers who acquire such a coin for the purpose of reselling, are they legitimately part of the pedigree? I can see arguments both ways.

What difference does it make if a dealer buys a coin for the purpose of reselling it? Isn’t he or she still a part of the coin’s provenance?

What if a collector buys a coin with the intent to keep it, but a week later, receives an offer he can’t refuse, so sells it. Isn’t he still a part of the provenance?

Zoins · July 3, 2020 8:17PM

@MFeld said:

@1northcoin said:
That raises an interesting question. Dealers who acquire such a coin for the purpose of reselling, are they legitimately part of the pedigree? I can see arguments both ways.

What difference does it make if a dealer buys a coin for the purpose of reselling it? Isn’t he or she still a part of the coin’s provenance?

What if a collector buys a coin with the intent to keep it, but a week later, receives an offer he can’t refuse, so sells it. Isn’t he still a part of the provenance?

I think it's important to keep track of the dealer name. I wish more dealers have online archives of their sales.

There is a difference to me, however. One difference is that, with a collector, you can usually look for, and appreciate, other coins in the collection, while this can be much harder to do for dealers.

tradedollarnut · July 4, 2020 7:14PM

Both times, the coin was in my personal collection. It was not bought to be re-sold.

tradedollarnut · July 4, 2020 7:14PM

Same for the Olsen specimen

Zoins · July 4, 2020 7:23PM

@tradedollarnut said:
Both times, the coin was in my personal collection. It was not bought to be re-sold.

Is it more accurate to say the coin was in the Morelan collection, the Legend collection, or both? I don't really understand the ownership between your personal collection and Legend. And is it the same for all coins?

It doesn't matter that much from an ownership perspective since its your coin, but it's useful to be clear for provenance tracking and documentation. For example, on the Liberty Nickel Collectors Society page for the Eliasberg specimen, it says "Legend Collection" and "Bruce Morelan and Legend Numismatics". What does each of these mean and is this how you prefer your provenance be noted?

tradedollarnut · July 4, 2020 7:54PM

Originally, I called my personal collection the Legend Collection. Laura liked that and used it for other sets she built. So there’s no continuity, unfortunately

Timbuk3 · July 5, 2020 12:39AM

Didn't the late Dr. Jerry Buss, owner of the Los Angeles Lakers have one that was auctioned in the early 1980's ? I think it was described as a Proof 63 !!!

Zoins · July 5, 2020 2:00AM

@tokenpro said:
I'm still on the hunt for #5:

Wow! So that's where the other 5 went!

Those look like they even circulated! Is that honest or artificial circulation?

Zoins · July 5, 2020 2:07AM

@dbldie55 said:
Here are three of mine.

Good use of ICG authentication.

Here's all 3 side-by-side.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 2:31AM

@Timbuk3 said:
Didn't the late Dr. Jerry Buss, owner of the Los Angeles Lakers have one that was auctioned in the early 1980's ? I think it was described as a Proof 63 !!!

Yes, Buss owned the NGC MS64 CAC Fred Olsen specimen, also previously owned by @tradedollarnut. Fred purchased the coin for $900! This used to be called the Olsen-Buss-Hawn specimen.

Of note Max Mehl owned this 3 times!

Would be great to get this back into PCGS slab with a TrueView!

Olsen Specimen

CoinFacts and Liberty Nickels are pretty in step on this.

Samuel W. Brown (employed at the mint from 1903 to November 1913)
August Wagner (who advertised the five 1913 Liberty Nickels for sale in The Numismatist in late 1923 and early 1924)
Stephen K. Nagy (possibly a Wagner accomplice)
Wayte Raymond (either as owner or broker)
Col. E.H.R. Green Collection (Green purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from Wayte Raymond circa 1924-1926)
Burdette G. Johnson & Eric P. Newman (who purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from the Green estates for $2,000 in December 1941)
James Kelly (who paid $750 each for three of the 1913 Liberty Nickels in March 1943)
Fred E. Olsen Collection (Olsen paid $900 circa 1943-1944)
B. Max Mehl 11/1944:1551, $3,750 - B. Max Mehl - B. Max Mehl 6/1947:2798, $3,750 (though billed as the Will W. Neil Collection, it was B. Max Mehl who owned and consigned the 1913 Liberty Nickel)
King Farouk Collection (per Walter Breen's Encyclopedia, but possibly an error) - if Farouk, then Sotheby's "Palace Collection" 2/1954
Edwin Hydeman Collection
Abe Kosoff 3/1961:280
reportedly bought back by Hydeman at $50,000
World-Wide Coin Investments (purchased in 1972 from Abe Kosoff for a then record $100,000)
Bowers & Ruddy (as fifty percent owners with World-Wide Coin Investments
World-Wide Coin Investments (a full owners)
Robert L. Hughes Enterprises (1977)
Superior Galleries (1977)
Dr. Jerry Buss Collection - Superior 1/1985:366, $385,000
Reed Hawn Collection - Stack's 10/1993:245, $962,500
Spectrum Numismatics - Nevada investor (2002)
Bruce Morelan (2004)
John Albanese & Blanchard & Co.
Greensboro Collection
Heritage 1/2010:2455, $3,737,500
Heritage 1/2014:5161 (as NGC PR64 5050505-050), $3,290,000

References:

http://www.libertynickels.org/1913liberty.php?example=olsen

Zoins · July 5, 2020 2:44AM

Walton Specimen

If Bruce ever gets the opportunity to own the George Walton specimen, I think he should go for it. Owning 2 is amazing. Owning all 3 of the publicly available ones would be out of this world.

Samuel W. Brown (employed at the mint from 1903 to November 1913)
August Wagner (who advertised the five 1913 Liberty Nickels for sale in The Numismatist in late 1923 and early 1924) - Stephen K. Nagy (possibly a Wagner accomplice)
Wayte Raymond (either as owner or broker)
Col. E.H.R. Green Collection (Green purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from Wayte Raymond circa 1924-1926)
Burdette G. Johnson & Eric P. Newman (who purchased all five 1913 Liberty Nickels from the Green estates for $2,000 in December 1941)
James Kelly (who paid $750 each for three of the 1913 Liberty Nickels in March 1943)
Dr. Conway A. Bolt - possibly R.J. Reynolds and family (North Carolina)
George O. Walton Collection (-1962)
Melba Givens and heirs (1962-2003)
Heritage 4/25/2013:4153, $3,172,500
Jeff Garrett and Larry Lee (2013-)

References:

Zoins · July 5, 2020 3:04AM

@tradedollarnut said:
Both times, the coin was in my personal collection. It was not bought to be re-sold.
Same for the Olsen specimen

Thanks for the clarification.

I updated the provenances here to just say "Bruce Morelan" so there's no confusion.

Jimnight · July 5, 2020 3:15AM

I wonder why these coins were never confiscated?

Zoins · July 5, 2020 3:16AM

@Jimnight said:
I wonder why these coins were never confiscated?

I don't think they did things like that back then.

Back then, the approach was to try to buy them back, e.g. dies and patterns.

Jimnight · July 5, 2020 5:52AM

@Zoins said:

@Jimnight said:
I wonder why these coins were never confiscated?

I don't think they did things like that back then.

Back then, the approach was to try and buy them back, e.g. dies and patterns.

In my opinion this coin is unauthorized and should be confiscated.
Rewarding this coin with a pedigree that's sells for millions is wrong.

Zoins · July 5, 2020 5:56AM

@Jimnight said:

@Zoins said:

@Jimnight said:
I wonder why these coins were never confiscated?

I don't think they did things like that back then.

Back then, the approach was to try and buy them back, e.g. dies and patterns.

In my opinion this coin is unauthorized and should be confiscated.

Should and would are different things. You're not the only one that feels that way but based on US government actions to date I don't think they will.

Rewarding this coin with a pedigree that's sells for millions is wrong.

They are taking action on newer coins like the Harry Edmond Lawrence 1974-D aluminum cent.

Jimnight · July 5, 2020 7:30AM

@Zoins said:

@Jimnight said:

@Zoins said:

@Jimnight said:
I wonder why these coins were never confiscated?

I don't think they did things like that back then.

Back then, the approach was to try and buy them back, e.g. dies and patterns.

In my opinion this coin is unauthorized and should be confiscated.

Should and would are different things. You're not the only one that feels that way but based on US government actions to date I don't think they will.

Rewarding this coin with a pedigree that's sells for millions is wrong.

They are taking action on newer coins like the Harry Edmond Lawrence 1974-D aluminum cent.

Thank you

1913 Liberty Nickel Pedigrees

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