Possible Buying Opportunity ripe for profit.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
We are not allowed to comment on specific grading services so I won't; HOWEVER, I just graded a large group of slabs from one of the "third tier" respected TPGS. Instructions were to "cross" all coins regardless of the grade. I do not know how old the slabs were so "gradflation" may have occurred for sure.
Whenever I examine a coin for crossover, I make sure to cover the label and look at the reverse first - virtually always the best side. I do this to make sure when I turn the slab over to examine the most important side my thumb is covering the grade.
Results: The grading was very conservative. My "guess" of their grade based on today's market standards was higher in virtually every case so most coins jumped a grade. IMO, this would have been the exact same result at one of the top services and I'll say that as a former grader ATS and someone who would happily purchase the coins at their new grade if I collected Morgan dollars. EXCEPT for one thing. The few coins that were graded as PL were not! The coins in "details" holders crossed as is with the same problem.
I don't see many of their coins at shows but I'm going to be looking for them. 
Comments
Hmmm insider information is frowned on.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There is also the possibility that it might not be about that grading service at all.
It could be about the eye of the original sender and what they picked to keep if they were the originally submitter to the other service. Or, still about the owner's eye if they bought them already slabbed.
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
I agree, maybe the 'submitter' has been looking at PCI (or whatever 3rd tier Insider2 was talking about) and cherrypicked bargains they have found, and submitted those for Insider2 to grade.
Little White Slabs
There are good deals to be had in many of the TPG holders. But I think for most I wouldn’t risk it unless you are knowledgeable enough to figure out which are the ones you would cross and which you should stay away from. Of course, that could be applied to most any slab/coin...
What the heck are you talking about? If the original owner sends a coin to a TPGS and it is undergraded, the HOWLING, BLEATING, and WHINING
does not cease! Then they post the under graded coin in a forum and complain some more rather than using the TPGS reconsideration service. When a collector buys a TPGS coin they feel is undergraded... that's what this post is all about.
There are some great coins out there in slabs that uninformed folks stick their nose up at. I'm giving you all a "heads up."
There are also coins from the major services that are now undergraded due to changing standards. Most of these get snapped up as soon as they hit the floor. So, IMO, it is about the grading service. Some services grade coin types more conservatively than others. Add the effects of gradeflation and...$$$ in many cases.
Agree on this possibility but more likely they are converting the entire collection because who wastes money crossing **problem coins along with the others? Wink, wink.
"If the original owner sends a coin to a TPGS and it is undergraded, the HOWLING, BLEATING, and WHINING does not cease! Then they post the under graded coin in a forum and complain some more rather than using the TPGS reconsideration service. When a collector buys a TPGS coin they feel is undergraded... that's what this post is all about."
I do not bother to play the slab game---I have removed far more coins from their slabs than attempted to get them crossed/reconsidered/cowbelled/etc. And I do admit that I have spent years watching this sort of thing with a sense of fascination, schadenfreude even. I feel like a voyeur at times. I need to rinse my eyes and wash my hands now......
It seems much more sensible to simply wait until one is really done with a coin, and then get it professionally graded. (Unless one's primary intent is flipping, in which case 'live by the sword, die by the sword'. If someone wants to play a dealer and gets burned, c'est la vie.) So much of this moaning and groaning really does take a lot of pleasure out of the hobby.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
@Sonorandesertrat
Well said.
I suppose, somewhere, there is a group of people who enjoy having their homes and jewelry appraised every few months, just to see if they're winning or losing.
Since grades aren't held to any standard and what is fashionable changes all the time, I've always thought the right time to have something graded or regraded is right before you want to sell it. Every single time I've had a coin "upgrade" I've been slightly disappointed to get back the same coins I sent in. They still have all of the same qualities and attributes they did before.
As to the OP's post, it seems a little indelicate to bring it up here on PCGS's Internet forum. I wouldn't be too happy if a PCGS grader openly discussed details of one of my submissions.
Wait, who in their right mind crossed small white ANACS to ICG? What a lunatic.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
I'm going to say it's later ANACS slabs. NGC has been this way too. I have been ripping undergraded Barber Halves from those 2 services!
Reminds me of an episode of Yes Minister, where Humphrey was discussing the Universities--"both of them."
@BryceM said: "As to the OP's post, it seems a little indelicate to bring it up here on PCGS's Internet forum. I wouldn't be too happy if a PCGS grader openly discussed details of one of my submissions."
Oh my. Big crime here.
Where do you think all the coins I write about or image to use in columns, classes, or posted here come from anyway? 99.99% of them don't belong to me.
NEWS FLASH: If a grading class were to ever get out of control TOGS's are all the students would want to talk about. That's what goes on here (CU) every day someone comments on a coin they saw on the Internet or received from a grading service.
I have revealed nothing. You don't know the submitter, the number of coins, the new grades, the TPGS (not a major service) they were crossed from, how long it took to grade them and ship them out, etc. All you know is that they were Morgan dollars and none met the "new" standard for PL (there is no longer a semi-PL grade). Everything else I posted should be common knowledge to any informed collector/dealer except how I personally examine a coin sent in to cross.
If it were up to me, a lot more of the "behind the scenes" workings of a TPGS would be revealed. But it is not up to me and I won't ever write a "tell-all book" focused on coin dealers, collectors, and TPGS like the one written by the car salesman I read a while back.
Wait, I did read "Confessions of a Coin Dealer" a long time ago. 
BTW, I have never, EVER, had a collector I called on the phone to talk about their coins complain. The same holds true in a class when I pick apart a collector's TPGS coin and explain toall present why that particular TPGS assigned that particular grade to the coin.
I hope you
can see me 
in a different light now.
"But it is not up to me and I won't ever write a "tell-all book" focused on coin dealers, collectors, and TPGS like the one written by the car salesman I read a while back."
Wait... you mean ColonelJessup actually wrote the book I have been trying to get him to write for years?????
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Don't forget that there are also undergraded coins in the marketplace that are raw in flips and 2X2 cardboard holders.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Confused.
This is old news, like from 1999. :P
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
I have bought raw coins on ebay that grade at multiples of that price; I know others who bought coins for $800 that ended up grading at $3500; and yet another that bought a rare variety for somewhat over $125 that was worth many thousands.
There are deals in and out of slabs. I wonder what happened to the pure hobby of buying the coin not the holder and for love of the hobby?
When a collector/dealer looks at a coin in plastic, I would imagine the first thing they do is to compare the grade given to what they feel is the coin's grade, regardless of the plastic's reputation, even a CAC coin would be looked at by the buyer to see if they agreed with the color of the sticker, just human nature. There are so many grading companies besides the top three that had good graders. All of the grading companies have went through periods of change to standards. What I am saying is that the buyer should be able to decide whether they agree or disagree with the grade the tpg gave to the coin and if they are unable to do this they are guessing, which never turns out well for the buyer. I think Insider2 is correct, if you feel comfortable with your ability to grade the coin correctly, then there are opportunities available with many of the tpg's grades. To not look at a coin merely because it is in plastic not of the top 3 is a mistake. Look, evaluate and decide. We all do it every day both with coins in plastic and in 2x2's. The worst mistake is basing one's decision solely on a photograph and that has become a standard business practice when buying on the internet. JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
My original thought too but after more info not so sure. There was a small outfit called NTC numistrust, I don’t know if they’re still around, but I’ve found gems in that plastic. They were also good at identifying problem coins and made it known.
"Today the crumbs, tomorrow the
loaf. Perhaps someday the whole damn boulangerie." - fictional Jack Rackham
My guess is that they were the slabs of a service called, it think, DGS. I don't recall exactly what the "D" stood for. (Correct me if I am wrong on this.) That service was started by a coin dealer who bought the rights to the PCI slabs but did not use the name PCI. The service didn't last very long but was very conservative in its grading. It was at least as good as the top TPG's.
It all comes down to the proper application of the traditional ANA grading standards. Too strict and submitters are cheated; too loose and the buyer who blithely trusts the grading is cheated. Bigotry against fair grading companies is not right, they all have a lot to offer. The old PCI and Anacs could be strict on some coin series.
Dominion Grading Service run by DLRC.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Insider2
Perhaps I misunderstood...... we don't ever seem to be on the same wavelength. From the title of your thread, I read that you were notifying us that a bunch of Morgans would soon be hitting the streets in ICG plastic and that whoever happened to find them could score “A possible buying opportunity, ripe for profit.”
If that was my submission and you were notifying a bunch of collectors that they could find and rip my coins I’d not be too happy....... but, like I said, perhaps that was not what you were saying.
Reading it again, perhaps you’re meaning that some of the coins in some unnamed, nebulous holder were conservatively graded. If that’s what you meant, why not just say so?
In all of the years I have been collecting coins, I have gotten two major upgrades. One coin was clearly undergraded the first time out, and I think the second one was a gift because I sent in a very attractive batch of coins. That said, I think what I have spent on grading and re-grading / reconsideration fees exceeds the above scores.
I try to buy a coin in a holder that I like which I think is strong for the grade, and I think reasonably priced, and forget about the grading issue until it is time to sell.
Well put... I think you just wrote the cliff notes version of that non existing "insider" book!
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@BryceM said: "Reading it again, perhaps you’re meaning that some of the coins in some unnamed, nebulous holder were conservatively graded. If that’s what you meant, why not just say so?"
I did!
Possible (if you happen upon slabs from this respected TPGS) Buying Opportunity (For whatever the reason - conservative grading or gradflation the coins are under valued) ripe for profit (all coins jumped a grade and IMO are now correctly graded according to the current commercial grading standard. Look out for them.).
Actually, much of the book is written. Unfortunately, many of the things in it that were novel ideas back in 1980 have now been published or are well known from seminar classes.
Since you didn't ask...IMO, the BEST treatment on the subject of coin grading SO FAR has been written by Mr. Poe. I told him that much of his book reads like my class notes! IMO, the BEST treatment on coin authentication SO FAR has been written by PCGS. The section on grading makes a good companion to the Poe book.
Would that be the book Art and Science of Grading?
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