Anyone Ever Have a Coin Bounced While In For Reholdering?

RichR · February 19, 2020 7:38PM

First off...I'll admit that I like my slabs to be neat and clean...so I decided to treat myself and to have my somewhat scruffy 64PL Morgan reholdered. The holder was not cracked or damaged...just older and a bit unsightly. I've had it for a couple of years.

The coin was also CAC greenbeaned.

So...then...imagine my surprise when I got the email today that the coin no longer rates as PL. This was determined during reholdering...I had not requested a grade reevaluation of any other service. Therefore, the TPG guarantee will be honored to reimburse it's cost.

Just surprised that two independent evaluation teams had evidently missed the mark here...not to mention I also bought it because it had nice clean surfaces and mirrors.

BryceM · February 19, 2020 7:44PM

Unusual for sure. Did they do a TrueView? I’d love to see it.

RichR · February 19, 2020 7:51PM

They did not...I'm assuming that they keep the coin and I get a check? Is that how this works...it's a first for me.

I've only responded to the initial email alerting me to the situation...and asking for receipt/sale documentation.

The authenticity of the coin and holder are not being questioned at all.

coinbuf · February 19, 2020 8:17PM

I think you get the coin back with a ck for the difference between PL and non PL

MedalCollector · February 19, 2020 9:10PM

@coinbuf said:
I think you get the coin back with a ck for the difference between PL and non PL

Cha-Ching! You get to keep an apparently nice coin, and a little bonus cash? Sounds like a good deal to me. FWIW I don’t think the CAC sticker approves the PL designation, just the grade.

bolivarshagnasty · February 19, 2020 9:25PM

I had a coin holdered, graded, and with variety attribution and in my possession when PCGS cancelled the cert #. The variety Specialist decided, AFTER, sending the coin back to me that the variety was too minor for PCGS to recognize. The coin in question was a Mercury 37 ddo listed in the CP’s guide.
Sounds like you will fair better.

ms70 · February 19, 2020 9:27PM

@bolivarshagnasty said:
I had a coin holdered, graded, and with variety attribution and in my possession when PCGS cancelled the cert #. The variety Specialist decided, AFTER, sending the coin back to me that the variety was too minor for PCGS to recognize. The coin in question was a Mercury 37 ddo listed in the CP’s guide.
Sounds like you will fair better.

Too minor? It either is or isn't!

Geez.

RichR · February 19, 2020 10:12PM

I assume that the coin is cracked out before it's reevaluated. So...maybe I should request that they slab it as a straight 64...at least then it'll have some environmental protection. It's definitely a nicer coin that the other straight 64 in my collection.

davewesen · February 19, 2020 10:15PM

Heard stories of people sending in coins for reholder, and they fell in half because they were really 2 half coins making one nice expensive coin in slab.

fivecents · February 19, 2020 10:27PM

Does CAC acknowledge the PL grade qualifier or just the stand alone grade when giving the bean?

fivecents · February 19, 2020 10:28PM

@davewesen said:
Heard stories of people sending in coins for reholder, and they fell in half because they were really 2 half coins making one nice expensive coin in slab.

You've got to be joking.

BryceM · February 19, 2020 10:40PM

CAC lists different prices in their new price information for PL coins.

Bochiman · February 19, 2020 11:32PM

Kind of.....had a 1968 Roosevelt that was labeled MS66 but looked MS66FB and was in the system as MS66FB.
Sent it in for relabeling and it came back MS65FB. So, I lost a point and gained the FB it deserved.

It was for my registry and, given the price different, it wasn't worth arguing (this was about 5 years ago, maybe a couple more), and I just ate the cost, got a replacement that I bought, and vowed to never send another one in like that again.

PerryHall · February 20, 2020 12:42AM

@davewesen said:
Heard stories of people sending in coins for reholder, and they fell in half because they were really 2 half coins making one nice expensive coin in slab.

Do you mean something like a 1916 dime being milled down and combined with a milled down reverse of a common date D mint marked dime to create a 1916-D dime? While this has been done I doubt that any major grading service would have missed it. The coin hobby has many myths so it helps to have a healthy degree of skepticism when you hear stories like this.

davewesen · February 20, 2020 2:33AM

more like a gem 1932 quarter and Denver reverse and 1945 dime and FB Philadelphia reverse … in counterfeit slabs that the grading services did not miss

amwldcoin · February 20, 2020 5:19AM

I must say this is the 1st I've heard of this happening on a simple reholder. If PCGS starts reevaluating and upgrading 58+'s it will have the everyman collectors in an uproar!

RichR · February 20, 2020 5:39AM

Just to be clear...this was practically a clean white PL coin, with minor rim color in a +/- 15-20 year old holder...I'm amazed that a simple reholder job would warrant a reevaluation of the PL status. It's definitely a highly mirrored surface...that's why I jumped to buy it...and I paid roughly the guide price. So it definitely wasn't a heavily damaged slab (just unsightly wear marks) or a straight MS64 coin that was mislabeled as PL...just wanted to clarify.

I also own 65% of the entire Morgan collection in 64PL (with a couple of 63PLs)...and this coin fit right in visually.

I'm also going to have to check with CAC if they have any "warranty" out there...?

Desert Moon · February 20, 2020 5:58AM

For CAC if the cert # does not change, they will replace bean in the new holder, unless they consider the overall grade change from 64PL to 64. Also, if you do a reholder and want the sticker back on, you should always image the coin in the original slab, and send that along as well to CAC - make it easy on them.

Best, SH

Gluggo · February 20, 2020 6:50AM

RichR do you have a nice picture of the slab before you sent it in for us? TYIA

RichR · February 20, 2020 7:34AM

Unfortunately, I don’t even have a picture for myself...which is VERY rare for me. It was in my next batch to image post new slabbing...kicking nyself. Fortunately I do have my sales receipt...and fortunately the price has been pretty flat since I bought it....because I’m sure the “guarantee” only applies to my initial purchase price and not subsequent appreciation!

And this coin has a substantial price differential between a straight 64 and a 64PL. Just surprising because I didn’t have any second thoughts re this coin...none. Sometimes you wonder “How did that coin end up in that holder?” But not with this one

ms70 · February 20, 2020 8:19AM

These stories can cause a lack of confidence for sending a coin in only for a TrueView. When you do that reholdering is part of the process.

lkeigwin · February 20, 2020 8:29AM

With regard to the guarantee payment when a coin downgrades PCGS will offer you a choice: PCGS keeps the coin and sends you a check (their assessment of the value of the coin before its downgrade) or you keep the coin and get a smaller check (their opinion on the difference in value, before and after).

I have had six or eight such downgrades in the last 15 years. PCGS has never asked for documentation on the original purchase prices. This is not to say their policy can't have changed, just that PCGS always arrived at the numbers in my experiences.

When I was unhappy with their valuations I debated them, often with documentation of the sales prices of similar coins. This usually led to compromises.

As for PCGS's action in the OP -- downgrading a coin submitted for reholdering, I have mixed feelings. On one hand it feels very customer-unfriendly and I can imagine many folks unhappy about it regardless of any payout, particularly registry set collectors. On the other hand I like the notion that PCGS cares about the accuracy of their work and is willing to make a payout for the sake of getting it right.
Lance.

Coin Finder · February 20, 2020 8:44AM

WOW! I had no idea this could happen. This is troubling to say the least...

alefzero · February 20, 2020 8:51AM

Not PCGS, a different TPG. I sent two 1888 MS66 Morgans in for variety attribution (among others). Got a call telling me that one of them was a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder. I knew one was 63, 64 on a good day. But I also knew that this service notoriously slabbed dollars around 64 as 66. Saw them frequently enough. The two were bought off Teletrade back when you actually called up your bids and there were no photos, just brief descriptions in an insert in Numismatic News. But the TT tag was on the back of the slab and I could send a copy of the original invoice, showing the tag, to get made "whole" on the purchase. The assertion that it was counterfeit was ludicrous as nobody is going through the trouble for a common date coin like that and I knew the variety well (VAM-16A) and it was 100% genuine.

asheland · February 20, 2020 8:53AM

Interesting stuff.

Cameonut · February 20, 2020 8:56AM

I didn't think that could happen.

If they can downgrade a coin when reholdering, is the opposite true? Will they upgrade a coin when reholdering?
Seems fair to me.

DelawareDoons · February 20, 2020 9:44AM

CAC does care about designations, a coin will not bean if JA and company do not believe it is PL/DMPL/FB etc. That said, I've found CAC's standard wanting when it comes to PL/DMPL Morgans, and thus, consider the CAC sticker irrelevant on coins with those particular designations. They seem to follow a more old-school approach to PL/DMPL designations than the more stringent modern standards.

There are a LOT of PL/DMPL old holders, especially in Old Green Holders, that would not meet present standards. I say good for PCGS for biting the bullet and pulling them/paying out when they get a chance. Sorry for your misfortune, OP.

coinbuf · February 20, 2020 9:52AM

Just one of the many reasons why I don't waste money sending coins back for reholdering. In your shoes I would have just polished the old slab, if this was in an OGH you would have lost money just with the reholder even more now.

TwoKopeiki · February 20, 2020 9:59AM

I think the issue is the difference between customer expectation and reality. I always believed that if i'm sending something for a re-holder, the only review by the graders is to ensure authenticity. Why did I believe that? Well, because PCGS clearly states that on their page describing the service:

So, do we know if there's a new process for re-holder? Can @BrettPCGS or anyone else on the team clarify?

RichR · February 20, 2020 10:26AM

Re the authenticity check and straight reholder vs. the regrade/downgrade...that was also my assumption. I didn't seek an upgrade.

But let's say that you do pay for a grade reevaluation (upgrade)...does this now mean that your coin can be DOWNGRADED??? I also never thought that was a thing?

Being totally serious with this question...

TwoKopeiki · February 20, 2020 10:37AM

@RichR said:

There are 2 different services - regrade and reconsideration. During regrade the coin is cracked out and graded (both upgrade and downgrade), while reconsideration is done with the coin still in the holder (upgrade only).

ShadyDave · February 20, 2020 10:40AM

@RichR said:
Re the authenticity check and straight reholder vs. the regrade/downgrade...that was also my assumption. I didn't seek an upgrade.

But let's say that you do pay for a grade reevaluation (upgrade)...does this now mean that your coin can be DOWNGRADED??? I also never thought that was a thing?

Being totally serious with this question...

I agree, this was my understanding as well. Isn't that the entire point of having separate services for: Reholder, Regrade, Crossover and Reconsideration??????

@HeatherBoyd can you provide clarification on this?

lkeigwin · February 20, 2020 11:02AM

@RichR said:
Re the authenticity check and straight reholder vs. the regrade/downgrade...that was also my assumption. I didn't seek an upgrade.

But let's say that you do pay for a grade reevaluation (upgrade)...does this now mean that your coin can be DOWNGRADED??? I also never thought that was a thing?

Being totally serious with this question...

Yes. It has always been this way with regrades.

There was some confusion about this years ago because PCGS said "the coin is guaranteed not to downgrade". DW clarified this by explaining that a coin can drop in grade but in such a case there would be a guarantee payout.
Lance.

edit to add from https://pcgs.com/servicesandfees:

lkeigwin · February 20, 2020 11:15AM

PCGS really should modify the wording in https://pcgs.com/services/regrade:

CoinJunkie · February 20, 2020 11:59AM

I imagine the percentage of instances where a coin downgrades as a result of any of the aforementioned services is so minute that PCGS prefers to mention it as a footnote. Conjecture on my part.

ms70 · February 20, 2020 12:04PM

@lkeigwin said:
On the other hand I like the notion that PCGS cares about the accuracy of their work and is willing to make a payout for the sake of getting it right.
Lance.

Here's the problem...... A coin gets graded. 10 years later someone sends it in simply for a REHOLDER. A completely different panel of people look at it without being asked and have a different OPINION. This is not accuracy nor is it "getting it right." It's the opinion of the moment that might be different 1, 3, or 5 years from now.

It's a moving bar of opinions, and on top of that have not been requested. 10 years earlier that same coin could have been sent in 20 times over the course of a single year, been given the same grade each time, and that would've been considered "right" at that point in time. Changing the grade during reholdering because opinions have changed just isn't right. Because of that, PCGS should stick to providing the service requested only.

This could make an argument that many rattlers & old green labels should upgrade upon simply being reholdered.

RichR · February 20, 2020 1:09PM

Follow up...the "make good guarantee" offer I'm now being floated is based on recent (2019) auctions/sales and not on the number on the currently published higher in-house guide value for that year/grade...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward. Meanwhile, the actual replacement value if I tried to buy the same coin today is $100 higher!

AND THIS ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE I SIMPLY WANTED A REHOLDER TO MATCH ALL MY OTHER PL MORGANS!!!

LanceNewmanOCC · February 20, 2020 1:11PM

@RichR said:

i've haven't personally but ive heard HORROR stories (some of the coins seen in-hand myself, so not rumor) of unattributed coins/errors going in for reholder/grading etc and coming back in a plastic flip or lost attribution(s), equating to tens of thousands of dollars worth of lost value with NO reimbursement as the tpg disagreed with previously assigned designation(s). a few LONG stories. these are very rare instances though.

a coin like yours would be a shock though.
.

RichR · February 20, 2020 1:13PM

I'm totally not being sarcastic...but maybe there should be a step added to the reholdering process where they contact you and ask..."Are you sure you want us to crack this open...wink...wink...nudge...nudge..."?

...or maybe they should notify you THAT YOUR COIN MAY VERY WELL QUALIFY FOR AN UPGRADE...want to roll the dice...why not?

An old holder with a green bean for the most popular classic series...and I wasn't asking for anything other than a plastic change...I can't believe I'm typing this message. I really thought this was a no-brainer...in-out, back to me. I guess I got lucky with my other 50+ reholders over the last 10 years not hitting the wall.

RichR · February 20, 2020 1:19PM

...maybe I can use my "credit" to resubmit it 15 times next year and see what happens!

TwoKopeiki · February 20, 2020 1:37PM

I think we should clarity on this from the powers that be @HeatherBoyd @BrettPCGS

ms70 · February 20, 2020 1:50PM

$100 isn't worth the controversy especially if it's being paid out as credit for services. That should be considered in negotiations.

coinbuf · February 20, 2020 1:54PM

@TwoKopeiki said:
I think we should clarity on this from the powers that be @HeatherBoyd @BrettPCGS

Hmmm this thread has been up for close to a day with several management tags yet crickets, I suspect you will see this thread closed before you see any official reply.

ms70 · February 20, 2020 1:55PM

@RichR said:
...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward.

And what if you didn't want future services from them?

RichR · February 20, 2020 2:07PM

@RichR said:
...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward.

 And what if you didn't want future services from them?

What? You don't think I should spend it getting more coins reholdered???

davewesen · February 20, 2020 2:57PM

@RichR said:
Follow up...the "make good guarantee" offer I'm now being floated is based on recent (2019) auctions/sales and not on the number on the currently published higher in-house guide value for that year/grade...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward. Meanwhile, the actual replacement value if I tried to buy the same coin today is $100 higher!

AND THIS ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE I SIMPLY WANTED A REHOLDER TO MATCH ALL MY OTHER PL MORGANS!!!

Counter offer that you would like them to find you a replacement MS64PL sometime during the next year

bolivarshagnasty · February 20, 2020 3:48PM

How did the grading room get involved in a reholder? Do all reholders pass thru the grading room? Inquiring minds want to know.

BryceM · February 20, 2020 5:18PM

I’d take cash. Period.

lkeigwin · February 20, 2020 6:01PM

@RichR said:
Follow up...the "make good guarantee" offer I'm now being floated is based on recent (2019) auctions/sales and not on the number on the currently published higher in-house guide value for that year/grade...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward. Meanwhile, the actual replacement value if I tried to buy the same coin today is $100 higher!

AND THIS ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE I SIMPLY WANTED A REHOLDER TO MATCH ALL MY OTHER PL MORGANS!!!

I feel your pain. A couple of things to note:

PCGS payouts are never based on their price guide. They have said publicly, many times, that they pay the equivalent of dealer wholesale and that they use recent dealer sales and auction records to arrive at their price. (I don't like it either but this is their business. However, I have always liked that PCGS is open to discussion and negotiation.)

I have never heard of a payout as credit toward future services. It has always been by business check, in my experience. I would not be happy with a credit (even though I surely would use it). Furthermore I would ask why the PCGS website says...

https://pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update
"For 24 years we've stood behind the service we provide to you not with a money back/fee returned policy if we make a mistake...not with a "we're sorry, we'll return your grading fee or give you free grading" policy if we make a mistake...but with an actual cash guarantee for the market value of the coins we grade and authenticate."

Lance.

Peasantry · February 20, 2020 6:27PM

Whats the over/under on how many internal emails are generated on this subject?

amwldcoin · February 20, 2020 7:38PM

The unfortunate changes when a private company becomes a publicly owned corporation ?

@lkeigwin said:

@RichR said:
Follow up...the "make good guarantee" offer I'm now being floated is based on recent (2019) auctions/sales and not on the number on the currently published higher in-house guide value for that year/grade...to be paid out as a credit towards free services going forward. Meanwhile, the actual replacement value if I tried to buy the same coin today is $100 higher!

AND THIS ALL HAPPENED BECAUSE I SIMPLY WANTED A REHOLDER TO MATCH ALL MY OTHER PL MORGANS!!!

I feel your pain. A couple of things to note:

>

https://pcgs.com/news/pcgs-grading-guarantee-update
"For 24 years we've stood behind the service we provide to you not with a money back/fee returned policy if we make a mistake...not with a "we're sorry, we'll return your grading fee or give you free grading" policy if we make a mistake...but with an actual cash guarantee for the market value of the coins we grade and authenticate."

Lance.

Anyone Ever Have a Coin Bounced While In For Reholdering?

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