Offering a coin to a dealer...tell the dealer the price you want -vs- him making an offer
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I have noticed that, figuratively speaking, 75% of the time when I put the price on the coin, a deal never gets done, whereas 90% of the time when the dealer makes the offer, a deal does get done. Yet, increasingly over recent times, dealers don't want to make offers, they want to know what my price is.
Is it wrong of me, or are there any pitfalls of telling dealers that I can never seem to get deals done when I put a price on my coins, and would prefer to know their best offer?
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If you're selling, you should probably have an idea what you want to get for your coins, right? But I get it- if you tell the buyer how much you want, he might agree even though he could have been willing to pay more.
Are these from the same dealers?
Some dealers you just won’t be able to get a deal done no matter what. There is a guy who is at many local shows who I’ve never seen buy anything. Then one show I heard another dealer say it must be a good day as he was able to sell a coin to that guy!
As for the dealers that you were able to get a deal done with by having them make an offer, those may just be the better dealers who would also buy if you tell them the price first.
If a dealer wants to know my price I tell him/her straight away.
I let the dealer counter if he wishes but I always have a price, below that, I will refuse to sell.
The key to getting the best price is the willingness to walk away with no deal
I imagine that a deal gets done far more often when the dealer makes an offer because the act of doing so indicates he/she is genuinely interested in acquiring the coin. OTOH, if a dealer is only interested in a coin if he can get a rip and flip, then I can see him asking your price so he can just nix the transaction if he doesn't like what he hears.
If a dealer isn't interested in making you an offer and instead asks for your price, I would assume he isn't that interested in acquiring the coin (at anywhere near fair value) and set my expectations of a deal happening accordingly. I'd likely still throw out a price and hope to be proven wrong. Otherwise, there are lots of coin dealers out there. Find the ones who actively deal in what you're looking to sell. If you still can't get an offer, you may just have an undesirable coin.
Finally, I consider an offer from a dealer to be a courtesy on their part. Again, if they really want the coin they'll probably be happy to do it. But in general, a seller should bear ultimate responsibility for setting an asking price, all else being equal. If you don't know the worth of what you have, maybe it's best to just auction it.
It's not always about a rip. Dealers want to know your price to see if it's in the ballpark for what they'll have to spend on the deal. No point wasting time on negotiations that aren't going anywhere because the seller wants more than the buyer is interested in paying.
The pitfall is that the dealer will infer that you tend to quote too much for your coins, and that you’re probably wasting his time.
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This.
I'll also point out that if someone's expectations are ridiculously high, it is safer to simply say not interested than to offer someone $50 for a coin they think is worth $1000. Then you look like a crook or are forced to break their heart by explaining that they got ripped off by someone else.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
I have to really want something or have a customer for something if I'm going to come out with an offer. This wasn't the case years ago. My experience which has evolved over the years is collectors buying and selling coins at shows want to buy from me at less than greysheet and sell to me for ask or more. I just don't waste my time anymore. My time is much better spent with vest pocket dealers and other dealers set up if I'm in a buying mood.
Hand me a box of coins net priced and you are more likely to sell something to me.
Hand me a box where every coin has to be negotiated, I may test the waters, but unless it's nice stuff you are likely not to get an offer from me.
Depends on the dealer. If I know them, I'll tell them my price. If not I'll "usually" ask what they are willing to offer. In both cases I already know what the current bid/ask price ranges are and what I'm willing to sell for.
I see it a lot at shows where the owner is buried in the coin.
Dealer looks and has a price in his head at which he can make a few bucks.
Asks "what do you need from this"
"I'm into it for $350"
"Sorry, I can't come close"
If the discussion continues
"What can you do"
"Maybe $275"
"But I'm into it for $350"
"Sorry, the market has changed and $275 is really the most I can do"
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Rule #1. If you are buried in a coin, don’t expect any dealer to bail you out!
Layout your price to them but I suggest starting at 10% over what you really want to get. Most dealers are going to lowball you anyways so always better to find another collector to sell too before offering to a dealer.
Also why rule #1 IMO, collect coins that are liquid, large collector base, in demand, easy to move etc. Do this and you will never have to enter the snakes den.
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I have found that it helps to have 3rd party numbers to support your selling price...for example 3 recent auctions of a coin in the same graded holder with the same green sticker sold for an average of X...I'm asking X - 10% (or whatever) because I know dealers need to make money too...
Don't sell your coins, its the wrong time. Just look at FMV price guides with down arrows in so many columns. Now might be the time to buy !
It might be the time to buy. Or it might be the time to sell - no one knows. Regardless, for various reasons, some sellers need to sell at certain times, even if they’d rather not.
Edited to add:
As a buyer, I much prefer to be quoted a price. And not because I’m looking to rip coins. It’s quite common for sellers to be looking for unrealistic prices. And in such cases, I’d rather just pass, than make an offer which will likely turn out to be insulting.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Any quality businessman should be able to give the reasoning behind their buy or sell prices based on a need to make enough profit to stay in business. When I have sold to HA, generally they will look up recent auction results and make a reasonable offer based on that.
Just to be clear, I wasn't taking a shot at dealers with the "rip and flip" comment. My point was that on some coins a dealer doesn't have a ready buyer and doesn't want the coin for inventory, so he/she would only be interested in it at a price that would allow quick wholesaling. The owner of the coin is likely to do better elsewhere. Getting a "rip" doesn't make the dealer (buyer) a bad or unethical person. I've purchased coins and other items on eBay many times at far less than they're really worth. I got a "rip" but was simply purchasing an offered item at the price set by the seller. No shame in it.
Situations where you need to make a quick sale are best avoided.
I'm happy to put prices on any of my coins since I own them. It's probably fair for you to price the coins you own too. In both cases if we're too far apart, a deal will probably not get done.
When I do sell to dealers, I keep an eye out on their websites to see how much they list my old coins for...quite a few times quite a bit more...sometimes just over what than I sold it for. The recent sales don't always reflect the quality of the coin that I am trying to sell, regardless of what the potential buyer has to say. Buying / Selling is a dance...it takes two to perform until one or the other is tired of going around in circles.
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Usually give my price. If it works great, if not no problem. Not into the “dance. “ Don’t dance when buying either. Once in a while might ask if seller can do a bit better on price.
That reminds me of a few particular cases. One was a coin I sold for a bit under $200. The dealer priced it at close to $600. I saw it for a while in his case but didn’t see it last time. Another was an eBay sale at around $950. That dealer resold it on eBay for over $2k. Both coins drew almost no interest from others when selling (and they weren’t obscure items-both were Morgans with color).
Looking at the dealer’s prices can give some info, but just as often it can be quite useless. Some dealers I’ve ran into won’t buy at any price (well maybe at face value), some are moody (will buy at one show but then give you the cold shoulder the next time), and a few will be fair every time.
I let him make the offer. If it's fair, then I accept. If not, then we negotiate from there. If he lowballs me and he refuses to budge....I walk.
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I have not sold many coins to dealers. A year ago when selling I got a lower offer than I expected on a coin, a super cool dealer told me to think about it, ask around and that his offer was good all day, any time.
Today I learned (the hard way) that you should be prepared for any offer and to pass or play right then and there.
After a lower than expected offer I told him I wasn't sure, thanked him and left. I returned 15 minutes later ready to sell and he wasn't happy, offered even lower because he said said I was probably trying peddle it around the bourse.
I was taken back and a little embarrassed.
My fault and could have been avoided if I was better prepared.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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I think I should always state my "soft" price, (usually 10% back of bid). If it's a multi coin deal I will go 15% to 20% on less expensive coins.
I'm not going to turn down a $300 sale for $15 or $20.
This just seems spiteful on the dealer's part. If it was a good coin at that price 15 minutes ago, it should still be a good coin at that price. Of course, we are human beings and emotions dictate (or at least influence) most of our decisions.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Dealers are human. And sellers can be just as soulless or more than the dealers.
There are 3 B&M shops in town. I'm close with 2 of them. I've seen collections end up in both places and the seller try to leverage the first offer in the second shop. In one case, the guy got a slightly lower offer and then offered to sell it if he just went $1 over the first shop.
All's fair....yada....yada...yada
But sometimes coming up with an offer is a LOT of sorting. Silver mixed with clad and a few collectible type coins. Shop 1 does all the work and then the seller lets shop 2 buy it for a match or a few bucks over. You can understand how the dealer feels.
It's even worse with a single coin. Much easier to shop the price around. Now, you should be confident enough in your offer as a dealer. But, if I'm a known entity to the other dealers, they may feel that a few bucks over my offer is probably still safe. And dealers can also be competitive. Someone might want to steal the coin from me just as a trophy.
I always say that I never want to be the first one to see a coin or collection. I'm confident in my offers. But, if I'm first, the seller won't trust my offer. And there are the dealers who just want to "win". If the seller comes already having gotten an offer and, as is often the case, my offer is noticeably higher, then I have a purchase without the drama.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
It might not have been spiteful. Often, buyers - collectors, as well as dealers - make fair offers, which are subsequently shopped around. And the seller ends up selling out the person who’d made the Initial fair offer.
For example, dealer #1 offers $2000 for seller’s coin and seller passes. Seller shows the coin to dealer #2 and trying to rip it, dealer #2 offers $1000. Seller tells him that dealer #1 had just offered $2000, so dealer #2 raises his $1000 offer to $2025. Seller decides to sell the coin to dealer #2.
Dealer #1 had made a fair offer, that was used against him by the seller and by dealer #2 (who had not made
a fair offer, initially). This is not an uncommon scenario. Depending upon the situation, I think it’s better if a dealer making an offer lets the seller know that the offer is good, only while the seller is at the table, on the phone, in the shop, etc.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
This is not the norm - but thought I’d share. A few months ago I was selling a coin and wanted $1900 for it. I debated on whether to tell the dealer my price - and just asked how much would he give me for it - and he said $2,200. Sold!
Good for you for not countering the dealer after he’d made what you thought was a fair offer. Many sellers will try to get more than they are initially offered, no matter how high the offer price. Likewise, many buyers will try to pay less than they are initially quoted, no matter how reasonable the asking price.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
As a seller, this is exactly the standard I intend to assume from now on to avoid any misunderstanding.
Whether the dealer states it or not.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
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What really annoys dealers is when a dealer asks if you have a ballpark price in mind and collector says I have really no idea. Then dealer offers a fair price and collector says that’s ridiculous I paid double that! That’s why dealers ask if you have a number in mind
@jmlanzaf @MFeld You both make valid points, although the situation @sparky64 described was different than the hypotheticals you described. Same coin, same dealer, 15 minutes.
Now, is it unfair that someone changes an offer out of spite? Not in my book. Personally, the human dynamic in this hobby is an aspect I thoroughly enjoy -- it adds complexity. It can be very satisfying to make a deal that's a win for buyer and seller alike. Other times, it doesn't work out and there is usually a lesson to be learned.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I'm not saying that I would ever do that. My offer is my offer and I try not to counter or be countered. I also didn't mean to suggest that this represents the situation here, at least not exactly. I'm just saying that there is a reason the dealer might be acting out.
Personally, I think it is natural for a seller to seek multiple offers. I always tell my people to "shop it around". There are a lot of items that no one but me would bother with at all. But dealers are human and you don't know the specifics of that dealer or the coin or the interaction.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Here's the other thing to consider: if someone shopped my offer around and couldn't beat it, don't I now know that the bar is lower?
Again, I would never do it, but especially at a big show like that, if you tried to whore me out and failed, don't I now know that I can come down and still probably win?
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
That is sort of the rub here if the seller goes first the expert buyer knows right away whether the buyer has a clue what they have or not and the value of same. Drives me nuts watching pawn stars when they pull that crap. Only Rick tells folks I can’t buy that from you for that low a price. Yes I know it’s tv but I wonder how many dealers out there would do the same thing. As for the angst of having buyers shop their coin around....how many of you have done the same thing when buying a car? How is that different?
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I don’t know whether sparky64‘s situation was different than my hypothetical, as he didn’t indicate whether he tried to get other buyers to top the dealer’s offer. Either way, it sounds as if the dealer made that assumption and should have been more polite and professional when sparky64 returned to the table.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Or maybe the dealer thought about it a little more after the seller walked away and realized he offered too much? I don't know that it had to be spite.
Usually a major wholesaler is setup with a large inventory of slabbed material at 95 pct CDN bid or slightly lower. At local shows his table next to mine. So unless a walk up seller will sell at that or below he is most likely blowing in the wind with me especially in this market. In addition I win items online in that range all the time.
If somebody is offering and I want the item I will make an offer usually laying the money on the table. If they pass let them shop it around. If guy quotes price not work for me won’t hesitate counter offer showing green then it’s in his court.
Many buyers have an unrealistic idea what they can get shopping it around the bourse, especially considering current market conditions. However I try to offer them a deal that beats what they would realize from an auction house after juice and shipping.
Case in point:
A guy comes up with a plastic bag of about a dozen mod commem dollars Unc and PF in PCGS 69. Wants to know if I am interested. Looked in my CDN - modern Commems page 29. First one up 1995-d Ms69 gymnast bid sheet bid $35 I offered that he was ok w that and added to tally sheet and off we went. Offers full bid off sheet as these inexpensive coins. Bought them all. Priced them then stacked them 6 deep in display case 2 which is mostly currency graded and raw.
Another guy came up from coin club I have bought from before offered me a NGC 1964 Kennedy half MS66 said he wanted $50 for. I simply told him him (he wanted too much for it) sheet is $35 (now it’s his turn) and he decided he would keep the coin which was perfectly ok w me.
The wholesaler setup next to me said “hey I have a box of Commems you can look at.” I looked thru a large box dbl row of about 50 picked out a couple one was a nice really lustrous 1937-D PCGS 66 Texas at $155 bid is175 and that’s one I took. It later sold online for $225. I also picked off a nice Pcgs MS 66 Bay Bridge and PCGS MS 65 California both same drill moved in a few months.
Considering current market conditions no motivation pay more. As a matter of fact Classic Commems in this months sheet - set of 50 shows neg change in all grades (except 65 CAC) across board for set total which is parameter I track. In looking at the CAC 65 column (mostly neg changes) the 1915-s Pan Pac shows green (incr) to $1500 bid (would price CAC piece about $1900 for retail) in CAC MS 65 vs 1300 for non CAC 65 which also increased. So the CAC 65 col about a dozen negs and 3 pos.
@PocketChange - From his original post I concur that @sparky64 is talking about two SEPARATE incidents. Once was a year ago, and the other happened today.
I don’t think anyone stated otherwise.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yes be prepared when shopping material around the bourse. A sharp vest pocket trader will know MV and wholesale ranges plus have good negotiation skills, decisiveness, and be able to act quickly.
Once I was at a show where the nice HA buyer kindly wrote their prices on stick it notes on the coins. Across the way was a dealer who advertised heavily trying to buy the coins HA had made offers on for X + a marginal additional sum. HA had done the work and research, the opposite dealer was taking advantage of that. The risk is that on nice very marketable coins, you make a good offer and then the seller tells another dealer what he was offered angling for more. Full market is hard to figure especially on rare and/or cac coins.
No matter what it is, pricing something you want to sell requires a ton of work. The sweet spot between giving it away and keeping it forever is pretty small sometimes. Most of the guys you encounter do it for a living.
If you do the work, know the market and really know what you want for it, the whole encounter becomes much simpler. The negotiation doesn't take too long at that point, and it doesn't always matter who goes first.
My problems usually come when I'm not so sure what the thing I'm selling is actually worth.
I used a strategy 1 time that worked. A guy with a nice array of Gold coins came up to me at the beginning of a big show. Most were not generic trade at spot + type of coins. Obviously he was going to shop them around. I gave him a ridiculous price on a common date $20 and told him this is an example of what I will pay. See what others will pay and I will do my best to beat their price. Yeap I bought every coin and was surprised at how low some of the offers were. And no, I didn't nickel and dime beat a lot of the offers(some were asininely low). He also shopped them pretty hard as it was around 7 hours later he came back to my table.
So you lied to him.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How in the H do you construe that I lied to them? Man, I'm beginning to wonder about you. I topped the roughly $20,000 he was offered by around $4,000!
Edit to add, I see where you are going with this...It was a loss leader and I basically offered retail for it as I knew no matter what I offered(being the 1st 1 to see the coins) someone would nickel me out...been there and done that too many times in my career.
I bow to who are holier than I!
three things come to mind:
--- if I don't have an idea of what a realistic price should be for what I'm selling, I should stop until I do.
--- it helps when I know the dealer I'm trying to sell to.
--- the dealer is in the supposed position of authority, if he can't offer a price when offered a coin he should just say so and save both parties time. asking me how much I want is akin to wanting me to bid against myself.
Actually, I didn't say anything...I just made him the offer and told him to give me a shot before he sold. I can see how it could be viewed that way thinking about it.
Well stated!
This is why I like dealing with dealers like Liz Coggan.
I come prepared, with coins I know she generally likes, and ready to quote her prices that
I feel will be in her ballpark and fair to both of us. Do I leave some money on the table this way? Perhaps, as she knows 'the market' infinitely better than I do, but it's quick, painless, and I'm usually on my way with a check in a couple of minutes.